On Molicell IMR- 26700A batteries, from a Molicell representative.

32 posts / 0 new
Last post

Pages

B42
B42's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/07/2013 - 21:03
Posts: 1875
On Molicell IMR- 26700A batteries, from a Molicell representative.

Since nobody seemed to know the origin or how to read the Molicell wrappers, I’ve been in communications with a Molicell representative I reached at the Molicell company, on the various Molicell battery sales going around, and am sharing this for general information. I included his responses from several emails put together with pertinent information and omitted my questions and comments.

“The MOLICEL IMR26700A, FSPE70045.227805 was manufactured in Canada on
Friday, August 15th, 2008.
The nominal capacity was 2900mAh and the maximum continuous discharge
rate is 40A.
Maximum charge rate is indeed 7.4A.
This cell was originally shipped and sold to a customer in Asia and may
be used or recycled from a battery pack.

(Likewise the green cells marked ending in 240803 were manufactured on the 240th day of 2008)

The date code for our cells is as follows;

FSPE800XX.YYYZAB
XX = Model Number
YYY = Day of manufacture
Z = year (0-9, A=10, B=11, ect.)
AB = Daily Batch number.

The FSPE70045 cell was discontinued in 2009 and is no longer in
production.
The version with the paper sleeve was our standard production for this
model and was manufactured only in Canada. The primary market was power
tools and light electric vehicles.

I would be very cautious about purchasing cells online for this model as
the cells are at least 4 years old and cannot be guaranteed with regards
to capacity and impedance. If they are ‘new’ unused stock they may be
fine but the impedance may have increased due to storage conditions.

Our minimum Order is 10K per month. We don’t deal with retailers and
don’t sell to any retail operations. We deal directly with
manufacturers.

I would assume that the retailer that you are dealing with has purchased
a number of cells from an auction or business sale or from one of our
customers who was liquidating old stock. They did not purchase from
E-One Moli Energy directly.

Any lithium-ion cell will be prone to failure if subjected to any abuse
conditions which include but is not limited to;
Over charge
Over discharge
External Short circuit
Drops
High temperature operation/storage
Freezing
Puncture/Crush
Immersion in liquid
Burning
Shooting with a bullet
Operation outside of the recommended parameters

The IMR26700 was a cell that used Manganese and Carbon electrodes and as
such are a very safe chemistry but severe abuse conditions can still
cause failure of the cell.

Every lithium-ion cell requires a protection circuit with, at the bare
minimum, protection from over discharge to keep the cell from going into
the negative voltage range which will cause lithium plating on the
electrodes which in turn causes internal short circuits that can lead to
“rapid disassembly” of the cell. (at the very least, capacity loss and
high impedance)
Over charge protection can be put on the battery or if not will be
located on the charger circuit.
Cell balancing circuitry and temperature monitoring are also typical in
multi-cell battery packs.

In rare cases, single cell application can be run without protection
circuitry but that is very application specific and would not be
recommended for this cell.

The “seller” of the cells online is not the manufacturer, and does not
constitute a representative of E-One Moli Energy nor our products, and
is obviously trying to just make a sale, I would again caution you to
take what they say with a grain of salt. No cell manufacture would tell
you that their cell will not explode and does not require a protection
circuit.”

(last portion was in response to my question whether or not its true this chemistry is safer and doesn’t explode as I’ve seen claimed, not in reference to any particular seller)

Edited by: B42 on 08/21/2013 - 02:16
benz
benz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
Joined: 07/03/2012 - 06:38
Posts: 144
Location: Perth, Western Australia

I had wondered about their “safety” aspect as well as thats what people keep mentioning as positives about them. The battery univertsity web site classes them as one of the safest li-ion chemistries, grouped with LiFeP04 etc…

tkmckay
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 days ago
Joined: 07/15/2012 - 10:52
Posts: 288
Location: Canada

B42, great information here. I’m a little shocked and perhaps scared now that I know the 3 Moli 26650’s I have (bought off ebay) were originally manufactured on March 22, 2002! 11 years old (Moli FSPE70038.0812 01)…. I might have to look at recycling these….?

B42
B42's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/07/2013 - 21:03
Posts: 1875
tkmckay wrote:
B42, great information here. I’m a little shocked and perhaps scared now that I know the 3 Moli 26650’s I have (bought off ebay) were originally manufactured on March 22, 2002! 11 years old (Moli FSPE70038.0812 01)…. I might have to look at recycling these….?

That’s exactly one of the main reasons I put this out there, looking at some of those sales I saw too, its possible some of these batteries could become quite dangerous, especially if used in series… It also seems to be true there is NO way to get them from the manufacturer legitimately, so when people sell them to you saying that, they are starting out lying to you.

It also seems to show that if they are 11 years old and still working well, Molis may be a great battery after all, lol

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 1 week ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7932
Location: SC

Excellent.  Thank you very much for your diligent work researching and reporting this.  This is a great service to BLF that you have just rendered. 

Slewflash
Slewflash's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 months ago
Joined: 07/05/2012 - 08:43
Posts: 1977
Location: Australia, Melbourne

Thanks B42. 

I guess getting brand new Moli cells is going to be extremely hard then..

Slewflash 

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 51 min ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 17294
Location: Amsterdam

thanks for this very useful information, good research!

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 1 week ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7932
Location: SC

 . . . which will cause lithium plating on the
electrodes which in turn causes internal short circuits that can lead to
“rapid disassembly” of the cell

 

Sounds like another way of saying explosion.  Or does it mean something less sever?  Based on the other statements about safety, explosion doesn't seem like a probability. 

EDIT: I know in a sealed flashlight, venting can cause an explosion.  I'm asking only about the cell itself.

Tom E
Tom E's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 37 min ago
Joined: 08/19/2012 - 08:23
Posts: 13552
Location: LI NY

So, do you think then this is real then? ebay Brand-New-MOLI-26700-2900mah-3-7V-Li-ion-battery

I ordered one yesterday Frown. It says brand new... Innocent Crap - from the pic it's 2008... Double crap! I see the example you use in the OP is this pic, crap!

vestureofblood
vestureofblood's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 5 days ago
Joined: 08/17/2012 - 15:21
Posts: 1930
Location: Missouri

Excellent digging D42.    Very useful info.   Both the part about must be a 10K a month purchase to buy from them and also the decryption of the date code.

In Him (Jesus Christ) was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
http://asflashlights.com/ Everyday Carry Flashlights, plus Upgrades for Maglite.

Tom E
Tom E's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 37 min ago
Joined: 08/19/2012 - 08:23
Posts: 13552
Location: LI NY

My MOLI cell indicates shipped, so I'm contacting the seller (saftymind) saying it's date code is 2008 - hope that's ok B42... Not mentioning BLF or anything about where I got this info from, of course. This is what I sent:

"I noticed today the date code on the picture of the MOLY cell is from 2008, and the manufacturer stopped making this model cell in 2009. Is the one I'm receiving as old as the one in the picture?
Please be honest. You are claiming "Brand New", but I'm not sure how that is possible.
Thanks,
Tom"

vestureofblood
vestureofblood's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 5 days ago
Joined: 08/17/2012 - 15:21
Posts: 1930
Location: Missouri

Tom,

I think you did the right thing by contacting the seller. He probly doesnt know anything about the manufacture date ( the way none of us did until just now LOL).   By saying its "new" he probly just means it has never been used, ie not harvested from a tool pack etc.   He may not be meaning to deceive any one.   I mean if I had a maglie still in the package from 2008 I would consider it new Smile 

In Him (Jesus Christ) was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
http://asflashlights.com/ Everyday Carry Flashlights, plus Upgrades for Maglite.

elektrolumens
elektrolumens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 12 months ago
Joined: 11/01/2011 - 20:24
Posts: 257
Location: Oregon, USA

I had no idea of the age of the batteries.

I bought and sold 100 of them in 2012. I am presently looking to buy 100 more, and, have a pre-sale going on them. The batteries I had before were awesome and worked great. My understanding of ‘new’ is never have been used before.

Anyway, I contacted the company I’m buying from and presenting the information (not mentioning source I got it from, exactly.) I want to know what the date is of the battery I’m intending to buy, so everyone knows what they are getting. I misunderstood to think I was buying from the manufacturer which is E-One Moli. I cannot give the name of where I’m buying them, obviously.

I appreciate the time and energy put into finding this information out. (of which I should have done so myself.)

(I hope it’s okay to post here on this subject? )

Wayne

Tom E
Tom E's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 37 min ago
Joined: 08/19/2012 - 08:23
Posts: 13552
Location: LI NY

Yes - didn't want to come down hard on him, but he's got a pretty big eBay store, and things like batteries do have a shelf life but he may not be aware of that... Dunno, 'brand new' to me sounds like recently manufactured, tuff call.

Wayne - really appreciate your postings here on BLF. Please, I think we all love your integrity.

Tom E
Tom E's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 37 min ago
Joined: 08/19/2012 - 08:23
Posts: 13552
Location: LI NY

His response below. Honestly, I think it's a fair reply. I'll probably keep it and do my own tests with it on a high amp or direct drive single cell build to see if it match's or exceeds a KK ICR. I also got 3 of the SONY 50A cells on order that HKJ reviewed. Actually, what we do to CREE LED's is far beyond manufacturer's recommendations, so, not sure if the shelf life concern of the manufacturer is all that accurate as well, but I'm sure it's a factor.

"The date code is 2008. I purchases from distributor. Your information is correct with Moli. The battery I sent you is in brand new condition. If you don't like the date code, you can return it. I will refund you the money.

So far, none of customer bought this Moli battery, has problem.

Terry"

 

 

Flomotion
Flomotion's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
Joined: 12/02/2012 - 15:13
Posts: 1402
Location: Pacific Northwest
Tom E wrote:

His response below. Honestly, I think it’s a fair reply. I’ll probably keep it and do my own tests with it on a high amp or direct drive single cell build to see if it match’s or exceeds a KK ICR. I also got 3 of the SONY 50A cells on order that HKJ reviewed. Actually, what we do to CREE LED’s is far beyond manufacturer’s recommendations, so, not sure if the shelf life concern of the manufacturer is all that accurate as well, but I’m sure it’s a factor.

“The date code is 2008. I purchases from distributor. Your information is correct with Moli. The battery I sent you is in brand new condition. If you don’t like the date code, you can return it. I will refund you the money.

So far, none of customer bought this Moli battery, has problem.

Terry”

 

 

Link Please…

Flomotion

Tom E
Tom E's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 37 min ago
Joined: 08/19/2012 - 08:23
Posts: 13552
Location: LI NY

flo - post #8

Flomotion
Flomotion's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
Joined: 12/02/2012 - 15:13
Posts: 1402
Location: Pacific Northwest
Tom E wrote:

flo – post #8

Tried it, doesn’t work Flat Stare

Flomotion

vestureofblood
vestureofblood's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 5 days ago
Joined: 08/17/2012 - 15:21
Posts: 1930
Location: Missouri

I had the same problem with the link, but if you copy and paste in in your browser it will work. 

In Him (Jesus Christ) was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
http://asflashlights.com/ Everyday Carry Flashlights, plus Upgrades for Maglite.

B42
B42's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/07/2013 - 21:03
Posts: 1875
ImA4Wheelr wrote:

 . . . which will cause lithium plating on the
electrodes which in turn causes internal short circuits that can lead to
“rapid disassembly” of the cell

 

Sounds like another way of saying explosion.  Or does it mean something less sever?  Based on the other statements about safety, explosion doesn’t seem like a probability. 

EDIT: I know in a sealed flashlight, venting can cause an explosion.  I’m asking only about the cell itself.

Yes, I think they’d never say their cells “explode” directly, but “rapid disassembly” in a contained space would lead to that…and technically explosion could be described as “rapid disassembly”. Sounds to me like they are “a little” safer than other chemistrys, but have the same dangers.

B42
B42's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/07/2013 - 21:03
Posts: 1875
Tom E wrote:

My MOLI cell indicates shipped, so I’m contacting the seller (saftymind) saying it’s date code is 2008 - hope that’s ok B42… Not mentioning BLF or anything about where I got this info from, of course. This is what I sent:

“I noticed today the date code on the picture of the MOLY cell is from 2008, and the manufacturer stopped making this model cell in 2009. Is the one I’m receiving as old as the one in the picture?
Please be honest. You are claiming “Brand New”, but I’m not sure how that is possible.
Thanks,
Tom”

I’m not sure any seller necessarily knows these cells dates really. It sounds like all stocks of them are either “misdirected stock” or “sales of old stock” or “re-purposed batteries”. Doesn’t mean they aren’t “new” as in unused, and if unused they may be relatively “OK” but since you cant know the origin, its impossible to tell. Seems unlikely they would hold enough charge for 4-5 years though without some kind of charging/maintenance.

Part of the nature of these cells then will be: since they discourage sales and don’t sell to resellers, all stocks will be “under the table” and probably prohibited by their contracts (I’m guessing this is why he had interest in knowing where I saw the cells for sale). So this means any “original” source of them either has no real idea where the cells are coming from and is not the “original” source, or is.. less than fully truthful.

elektrolumens
elektrolumens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 12 months ago
Joined: 11/01/2011 - 20:24
Posts: 257
Location: Oregon, USA

B42 wrote:
elektrolumens wrote:
I had no idea of the age of the batteries.

I bought and sold 100 of them in 2012. I am presently looking to buy 100 more, and, have a pre-sale going on them. The batteries I had before were awesome and worked great. My understanding of ‘new’ is never have been used before.

Anyway, I contacted the company I’m buying from and presenting the information (not mentioning source I got it from, exactly.) I want to know what the date is of the battery I’m intending to buy, so everyone knows what they are getting. I misunderstood to think I was buying from the manufacturer which is E-One Moli. I cannot give the name of where I’m buying them, obviously.

I appreciate the time and energy put into finding this information out. (of which I should have done so myself.)

(I hope it’s okay to post here on this subject? )

Wayne

NP, I’m sure you’ve been “had” too…maybe even the guy selling to you…

No, I dont think I was had. The seller did not mislead me at all, I never considered at all, the manufacture date, and never asked. They buy or purchased these new for their product. I think it might be that they are selling excess stock or stock they do not need any longer.

Anyway, I’m checking with them on the manufacture date, etc.

Wayne

B42
B42's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/07/2013 - 21:03
Posts: 1875

Just to clarify, all sales I’ve noticed seem to say “new” and not specify a date or “made this year” or whatnot, it doesn’t necessarily mean that anyone was directly lying to anyone (except maybe to Molicell on the original contract, but I don’t know that for certain either). And I don’t myself know if these cells can safely be used for this period or even the “11 year old manufacture” date cells above may be functional. However I think everyone should be aware they are using old cells if they choose to. Maybe someone can find out useful life of this type of cell and any problems from age from RC and Ebike people?

I know a lot of people here pulled apart a new laptop packs and have 2009-8 cells, hopefully after they showed no signs of problems after recharging and testing. But they were not kept at an “acceptable” voltage as far as I know, many around 2V. So the question is, do Molicells keep voltage longer than Panasonic 18650s, or was someone “maintaining” the battery stock, or are they really used cells? That last question, coupled with the increased energy in a 26650 and the increased Amps available from Molicells makes me hesitate and shrink away from their use in a flashlight, in series especially.

vestureofblood
vestureofblood's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 5 days ago
Joined: 08/17/2012 - 15:21
Posts: 1930
Location: Missouri

Hey B42,

If possible could you find out what cell Moli is making now.  Meaning when they stopped making this one in 2009 what did they replace it with?

In Him (Jesus Christ) was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
http://asflashlights.com/ Everyday Carry Flashlights, plus Upgrades for Maglite.

elektrolumens
elektrolumens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 12 months ago
Joined: 11/01/2011 - 20:24
Posts: 257
Location: Oregon, USA

B42 wrote:
Just to clarify, all sales I’ve noticed seem to say “new” and not specify a date or “made this year” or whatnot, it doesn’t necessarily mean that anyone was directly lying to anyone (except maybe to Molicell on the original contract, but I don’t know that for certain either). And I don’t myself know if these cells can safely be used for this period or even the “11 year old manufacture” date cells above may be functional. However I think everyone should be aware they are using old cells if they choose to. Maybe someone can find out useful life of this type of cell and any problems from age from RC and Ebike people?

I know a lot of people here pulled apart a new laptop packs and have 2009-8 cells, hopefully after they showed no signs of problems after recharging and testing. But they were not kept at an “acceptable” voltage as far as I know, many around 2V. So the question is, do Molicells keep voltage longer than Panasonic 18650s, or was someone “maintaining” the battery stock, or are they really used cells? That last question, coupled with the increased energy in a 26650 and the increased Amps available from Molicells makes me hesitate and shrink away from their use in a flashlight, in series especially.

I disagree. No need to hesitate and shrink away from the 26700A Moli, any more so than any other 26650. More and more we’re seeing flashlights using this size battery. If one is careless, with any of these batteries, yes, there can be a problem.

Even though the 26700A Moli batteries we can buy now were last made in 2009, if they are unused, and stored in cold storage throughout their time in storage (which minimizes aging), these batteries will be of excellent quality. The same batteries are presently being used in new applications, golf carts, electric bikes and cars, power tools, etc, to this day, indicating they are still quite capable to power even the most demanding of applications. If a battery has a problem, even a small size Li-Ion, it can catch fire, doesn’t matter if it’s big or small. Moli 26700A, unlike most 18650’s and other Li-ion batteries, is designed to vent the gas and release the pressure reducing risk of fire, or explosion.

Wayne

B42
B42's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/07/2013 - 21:03
Posts: 1875

Here is some follow up information from a Molicell rep with some info some of you have asked about:

>>
>> The IMR26700A cell was replaced with the IBR26700A cell (max
>> discharge rate of 40A continuous), we found that high amp spikes
>> caused damage to the internal components of the cell, so it was not
>> so good for the higher end power tools it was originally designed
>> for. Lishen still makes an IMR26700A cell.
>> The IBR26700A cell is much better at handling these spikes but the
>> trade off was a slight decrease in capacity to 2.8Ah from 3.0Ah.
>>
>> Our newest cell offerings are the IHR18650C 2.0Ah Power cell which
>> can operate down to -40°C and discharges at a continuous 20A rate.
>> It can also charge at a rate of 6A continuous.
>> Another cell is the ICR18650M 2.8Ah Energy cell which can also
>> operate down to -40°C but this one discharges at a standard 1C rate.

B42
B42's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/07/2013 - 21:03
Posts: 1875

Also, as long as the cells are treated and stored correctly, he does not seem to think there is much of a problem using the IMR26700As (soldering the top of cells is said to make engineers cringe Wink ). Plus, (my thought), a typical flashlight isnt pushing the cells with as high amp spikes as power tools would to cause the damage he is talking about. (I’ll let you know if he corrects me on this one)

DB Custom
DB Custom's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 days 3 hours ago
Joined: 01/13/2013 - 22:28
Posts: 20698
Location: Heart of Texas

Excellent information, thank you. So if someone has a new Prius, take the battery pack out and sell us the individual cells, we’ll be happy! Smile

B42
B42's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/07/2013 - 21:03
Posts: 1875

Tks. Well, their new 18650s sound great, too bad they dont sell them: “IHR18650C 2.0Ah Power cell which can operate down to -40°C and discharges at a continuous 20A rate. It can also charge at a rate of 6A continuous.” Sounds like almost the ideal cell for what many want: high A discharge and fast recharge, cost is lower capacity though. That cell should be done recharging in less than a half hour on a charger that could charge it at its fast rate! Too bad they dont sell them in small quantities.

DB Custom
DB Custom's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 days 3 hours ago
Joined: 01/13/2013 - 22:28
Posts: 20698
Location: Heart of Texas

Sound a lot like the Samsung 20R, which are available (or were available) for around $6 ea. My fastest charge rate is 1A, so I couldn’t do the quick-charge if I wanted to.

Yeah, shame they don’t sell in smaller lots. A group buy or a purchase like Wayne is doing on the bigger cell would get them distributed if they could be purchased 2 or 300 at a time.

Someone with a store could lay in a stock and be a supplier, if they’d sell to a wholesaler or retailer. It’d be interesting to find out which tools use their cell, get a tool power pack and rob the cells. Probably cost prohibitive though, as those packs can be pretty outrageous.

Might be something worth looking into though. I wonder how to find out?

ortak
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 6 months ago
Joined: 05/06/2015 - 07:24
Posts: 1
Location: South Carolina

I have a couple Milwaukee battery packs that need new cells. What cells should I be looking for and where can I find them?
The cells are labeled MDLI FSPE70045

Pages