Tesla Could Use Up All The World's Laptop Batteries (18650's)

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oRAirwolf
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Tesla Could Use Up All The World's Laptop Batteries (18650's)

http://jalopnik.com/tesla-could-use-up-all-the-worlds-laptop-batteries-1...

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Based on current production predictions of 21,000 cars this year, and up to 40,000 by 2015, it’s possible Tesla could use the entire global supply of 18650 model LiOn batteries for its Model S sedans. Sure, there’s way more laptops sold with those batteries, but every Model S with the 85 kWh battery pack uses over 7,000 of the cells.P

The Model S uses about 2,000 times as many cells as a normal laptop battery, and those cells are commodity 18650 cylindrical cells. Yep, that means if you had the time and resources to pull apart a Model S, you’d end up with a garage full of little cylindrical cells, like the Model S was a giant R/C car using thousands of AAAs.P

If Tesla does manage to ramp production up to the 40,000 cars/year that they’re planning, that would require the entire current output of 18650 LiOn cells to supply them. So what’s going to happen?P

Well, things will have to scale up, clearly. Panasonic, a Tesla investor and partner, has already started planning increasing capacity by re-opening old lines and starting up new ones. Tesla has made by far the biggest impact on the battery industry of any non-computer/electronics manufacturer, and it’s looking like they may become the dominant customer very soon.P

Tesla’s success took the battery industry somewhat by surprise, and if Tesla’s growth plans are to be realized, there’s lots more growing that’s going to be needed from the industry, and soon.P

(Source: Green Car Reports, Slashdot)

This had better not affect my addiction!

Chloe
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Will this make Panasonic 18650 even cheaper maybe? Instead of harder to source…

dchomak
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I can’t wait for the Kipkay hack on the Tesla

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I hope a severe shortage becomes eminent (but it wont). With all the promising new ultra high density cell technologies that have never made it past the laboratory proof of concept stage, its time to up the ante and bring some of them to mass production. IMO, the current offerings are rather pathetic considering the potential.

A number 1
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Don’t try this at home boys&girls, you do NOT want to try and salvage a 85KW battery.

However, it is VERY unlikely ANYONE will EVER see a used Tesla battery, as they will surely be recycled into the nationwide network of Super Charger stations that Solar City and Tesla are now building:
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
Or the battery swap program that is about to get going:
http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap

Every Tesla owner gets “Free” electrons —- For Life, and them thar electrons got to get stored somewhere.

Trivia: When you put enough gas into most full size cars to travel 300 miles you increase the car’s weight by about 120lb. When you charge up a Tesla 85KW battery, for the same trip, you increase it’s weight by 1 gram.

There must be something magic about the 18650 battery size / container in the Lithium Ion world.
Tesla could have used ANY other chemistry or size it needed, but they used this 18650.
I think it was chosen for output capacity and optimum cooling efficiency, but I don’t know for sure.

The “real life” Tony Stark , alias Elon Musk is busy working on the battery supply problem and I believe it will be resolved, shortly.

oRAirwolf
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I’m still waiting on Panasonic NCR26650B’s to come out Silly

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It’s 2020 and Tesla is buying all available Li-Ion cells in every size and cells are in short supply. CPF has cut a deal with major-brand light manufacturers – in return for supporting MAP, CPFers with support level 3 or higher can buy rejected cells and discards from those manufacturers. Panic in the streets! Rioting e-cig fueled mobs raid brick and mortar stores for anything that holds a charge… Meanwhile, sitting at home in the darkness, BLF’s finest organize a group buy for a late model, low milage Tesla. Weeks later, when the car arrives after shipping delays, BLF’s skilled pack pullers dissect the Tesla. Sweetness and light are restored.

leaftye
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A number 1 wrote:
Don't try this at home boys&girls, you do *+NOT+* want to try and salvage a 85KW battery.

 

Oh, I do, I really do.  Either I get 7000 cells or I go out with a bang like I've always wanted.

The low mode should be lower.

leaftye
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oRAirwolf wrote:
I'm still waiting on Panasonic NCR26650B's to come out :p

Anyone good enough at math to figure out if this would be pack more power into a given space?

The low mode should be lower.

Pulsar
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photon1k wrote:
It's 2020 and Tesla is buying all available Li-Ion cells in every size and cells are in short supply. CPF has cut a deal with major-brand light manufacturers - in return for supporting MAP, CPFers with support level 3 or higher can buy rejected cells and discards from those manufacturers. Panic in the streets! Rioting e-cig fueled mobs raid brick and mortar stores for anything that holds a charge... Meanwhile, sitting at home in the darkness, BLF's finest organize a group buy for a late model, low milage Tesla. Weeks later, when the car arrives after shipping delays, BLF's skilled pack pullers dissect the Tesla. Sweetness and light are restored.

haha that is great.  though my ecig runs off stacked lifepo4 rcr123a's. not much demand for those lol

the flashlight scene will be pushed to using 26650s. everyone will sell off their 18650 lights for cheap once cells start to deteriorate. I will buy them up for cheap. once a few teslas have a 7k li-Ion thermal runaways, 18650s are back on the streets and I get rich selling back btu shockers and fire foxes

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photon1k wrote:
It's 2020 and Tesla is buying all available Li-Ion cells in every size and cells are in short supply. CPF has cut a deal with major-brand light manufacturers - in return for supporting MAP, CPFers with support level 3 or higher can buy rejected cells and discards from those manufacturers. Panic in the streets! Rioting e-cig fueled mobs raid brick and mortar stores for anything that holds a charge... Meanwhile, sitting at home in the darkness, BLF's finest organize a group buy for a late model, low milage Tesla. Weeks later, when the car arrives after shipping delays, BLF's skilled pack pullers dissect the Tesla. Sweetness and light are restored.

 

No self respecting BLFer will be sitting at home on the dark!

We'll all be basking in the warm glow of our AA lights while counting our returns from  our investment in Eneloop stocks.  A 4 pack of 6th generation eneloop AAs is now selling on ebay for as low as $50!

vēer
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Good jokes, guys :D!

I wonder the same, how this will tranform battery industry?! Will it bring some of those promised fast-charge, super-capacity battery technology to the market or will it drive up the price due to lack of supply and growing demand?

Anyway, it looks like my D40A and EA8 and recently bought 18650 are worthy investments in that regard :D!

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A number 1 wrote:

Trivia: When you put enough gas into most full size cars to travel 300 miles you increase the car’s weight by about 120lb. When you charge up a Tesla 85KW battery, for the same trip, you increase it’s weight by 1 gram.

wrong and wrong


assuming an average of 0.725kg/l for gasoline density (wikiepdia says 0.71–0.77 kg/l) makes 165L of fuel to travel 473km equals 34.88l/100km or 6.74mpg, i don’t think so


electricity has no weight, i bet the 1 gram is testing error if it were ever actually tested


Greater demand will lead to greater production meaning the market will balance itself out and prices won’t rise appreciably if at all, and if competitors start making batteries then this should lead to lower prices for all of us. Assuming no shortage of material resources and no market failures

The Journal of Alternative Facts TM

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of alternative facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists"

 

 

 

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In the long run it leads to better technology, but in the short term there may be fluctuations due to demand not anticipated by suppliers.
E=mc**2 is the most famous equation in the world. c is 3 * 10**8 meters per second. Without working it out in detail, the factor of about 10**17 shows that the 1 g is an error, unless the volume change displaces that weight of air.
I read that the subsidies for electric cars are not justified, because of the impacts of generating electrical power and of mining and processing the materials for the electrical components. I am not against cars, just big cars carrying one person. I like the Tesla roadster, except that I am not rich, but the S is really just another big car. If any of you are in places like Iraq, don’t be mislead by this electric nonsense and keep the oil underground until it really becomes valuable.

Flashlight designers should look at lighthouses and pottery.
这些谁设计的手电筒应该看灯塔,以及在陶器。

StorminMatt
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A number 1 wrote:
There must be something magic about the 18650 battery size / container in the Lithium Ion world. Tesla could have used ANY other chemistry or size it needed, but they used this 18650. I think it was chosen for output capacity and optimum cooling efficiency, but I don’t know for sure.

That ‘magic’ is safety. When interviewed about the problems with the Boeing 787 battery, Musk specifically said that the reason why he went with small cells in his cars was safety. Because the 787 uses a larger form factor cell, this means that, if there is a problem, the consequences are going to be more dire. Larger battery = more electride material and electrolyte = bigger bang if the battery vents with flames. Also, having a large number of individual smaller cells mean that bad cells can be more isolated from the rest of the cells, both physically and electrically.

Admittedly, using larger prismatic cells would allow the battery pack to have a higher capacity for a given pack size. But from a safety standpoint, this isn’t a good idea unless a safer chemistry can be found which will still allow a similar energy density (like if, say, a way was found to increase the energy density of LiFePO4 threefold).

Without lamps, there’d be no light.

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Fritz t. Cat wrote:
In the long run it leads to better technology, but in the short term there may be fluctuations due to demand not anticipated by suppliers.
E=mc**2 is the most famous equation in the world. c is 3 * 10**8 meters per second. Without working it out in detail, the factor of about 10**17 shows that the 1 g is an error, unless the volume change displaces that weight of air.
I read that the subsidies for electric cars are not justified, because of the impacts of generating electrical power and of mining and processing the materials for the electrical components. I am not against cars, just big cars carrying one person. I like the Tesla roadster, except that I am not rich, but the S is really just another big car. If any of you are in places like Iraq, don’t be mislead by this electric nonsense and keep the oil underground until it really becomes valuable.

your not converting energy into matter when you charge the battery, your increasing electric potential by converting a lower energy chemical to a higher energy one (that goes back to the lower energy chemical as it discharges)

The Journal of Alternative Facts TM

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of alternative facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists"

 

 

 

nekdo12
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Bort wrote:

your not converting energy into matter when you charge the battery, your increasing electric potential by converting a lower energy chemical to a higher energy one (that goes back to the lower energy chemical as it discharges)

Yes, you are converting energy to matter! Chemical reactions are no different, than nuclear. Mass conservation si only simplification, becouse mass change in chemical reactions is very small Wink
spaceboy
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Surely they will increase production and the cells will become cheaper? Note also that laptop sales are falling fast.

Bort
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nekdo12 wrote:
Bort wrote:

your not converting energy into matter when you charge the battery, your increasing electric potential by converting a lower energy chemical to a higher energy one (that goes back to the lower energy chemical as it discharges)

Yes, you are converting energy to matter! Chemical reactions are no different, than nuclear. Mass conservation si only simplification, becouse mass change in chemical reactions is very small Wink

so your telling me there are nuclear reactions happening in a battery?
So the chinese preoccupation with lead ending up in food and other products is just for our safety?

The Journal of Alternative Facts TM

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of alternative facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists"

 

 

 

Fritz t. Cat
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Bort wrote:
Fritz t. Cat wrote:
In the long run it leads to better technology, but in the short term there may be fluctuations due to demand not anticipated by suppliers.
E=mc**2 is the most famous equation in the world. c is 3 * 10**8 meters per second. Without working it out in detail, the factor of about 10**17 shows that the 1 g is an error, unless the volume change displaces that weight of air.
I read that the subsidies for electric cars are not justified, because of the impacts of generating electrical power and of mining and processing the materials for the electrical components. I am not against cars, just big cars carrying one person. I like the Tesla roadster, except that I am not rich, but the S is really just another big car. If any of you are in places like Iraq, don’t be mislead by this electric nonsense and keep the oil underground until it really becomes valuable.

your not converting energy into matter when you charge the battery, your increasing electric potential by converting a lower energy chemical to a higher energy one (that goes back to the lower energy chemical as it discharges)

This is all irrelevant, as I hoped was clear when I posted it, but. It’s like you said, electricity has no weight, except energy always has some weight as given by the famous equation. If no matter moves but chemical and electric energy changes, only the relativistic mass of the energy changes. That is less than a gram but not exactly zero. Part of why the equation is famous is that in nuclear reactions, so much energy can be given off or absorbed that the difference in mass is measurable, even though the number of protons, neutrons and electrons does not change.

Flashlight designers should look at lighthouses and pottery.
这些谁设计的手电筒应该看灯塔,以及在陶器。

Bort
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Fritz t. Cat wrote:
Bort wrote:
Fritz t. Cat wrote:
In the long run it leads to better technology, but in the short term there may be fluctuations due to demand not anticipated by suppliers.
E=mc**2 is the most famous equation in the world. c is 3 * 10**8 meters per second. Without working it out in detail, the factor of about 10**17 shows that the 1 g is an error, unless the volume change displaces that weight of air.
I read that the subsidies for electric cars are not justified, because of the impacts of generating electrical power and of mining and processing the materials for the electrical components. I am not against cars, just big cars carrying one person. I like the Tesla roadster, except that I am not rich, but the S is really just another big car. If any of you are in places like Iraq, don’t be mislead by this electric nonsense and keep the oil underground until it really becomes valuable.

your not converting energy into matter when you charge the battery, your increasing electric potential by converting a lower energy chemical to a higher energy one (that goes back to the lower energy chemical as it discharges)

This is all irrelevant, as I hoped was clear when I posted it, but. It’s like you said, electricity has no weight, except energy always has some weight as given by the famous equation. If no matter moves but chemical and electric energy changes, only the relativistic mass of the energy changes. That is less than a gram but not exactly zero. Part of why the equation is famous is that in nuclear reactions, so much energy can be given off or absorbed that the difference in mass is measurable, even though the number of protons, neutrons and electrons does not change.

energy has no mass, energy and matter can be converted but a battery is not a nuclear reactor it stores energy chemically not by changing matter into energy, converting matter to energy requires fusion (like the sun) or fission

e=mc2 means if you had a chunk of matter and you could convert it all to energy you would get the number of joules specified by the equation.
And if you convert energy into matter, you would get the amount of matter indicated by rearranging the equation to solve for m

The Journal of Alternative Facts TM

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of alternative facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists"

 

 

 

nekdo12
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Bort wrote:
nekdo12 wrote:
Bort wrote:

your not converting energy into matter when you charge the battery, your increasing electric potential by converting a lower energy chemical to a higher energy one (that goes back to the lower energy chemical as it discharges)

Yes, you are converting energy to matter! Chemical reactions are no different, than nuclear. Mass conservation si only simplification, becouse mass change in chemical reactions is very small Wink

so your telling me there are nuclear reactions happening in a battery?
So the chinese preoccupation with lead ending up in food and other products is just for our safety?

No :~
E=m*c^2 is for both, chemical and nuclear reactions.

Nuclear=bonding energy in nucleous
Chemical=bonding energy of electrons

nekdo12
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Example:
H2+O2 mixture has a higher energy state than H2O when the bonds are reconfigured to the lower energy state of H2O this energy is released and hence mass.
But weight loss is only 0.294ng per gram of water produced-you can simplify, that there is no mass change Silly

Bort
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nekdo12 wrote:
Bort wrote:
nekdo12 wrote:
Bort wrote:

your not converting energy into matter when you charge the battery, your increasing electric potential by converting a lower energy chemical to a higher energy one (that goes back to the lower energy chemical as it discharges)

Yes, you are converting energy to matter! Chemical reactions are no different, than nuclear. Mass conservation si only simplification, becouse mass change in chemical reactions is very small Wink

so your telling me there are nuclear reactions happening in a battery?
So the chinese preoccupation with lead ending up in food and other products is just for our safety?

No :~
E=m*c^2 is for both, chemical and nuclear reactions.

Nuclear=bonding energy in nucleous
Chemical=bonding energy of electrons


so why does my nimh batteries deliver less output then my li ion? the lithium weighs less as well

The Journal of Alternative Facts TM

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of alternative facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists"

 

 

 

Milan
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A number 1 wrote:
Don’t try this at home boys&girls, you do NOT want to try and salvage a 85KW battery.

However, it is VERY unlikely ANYONE will EVER see a used Tesla battery, as they will surely be recycled into ….


premium Ultrafires.
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Bort wrote:
converting matter to energy requires fusion (like the sun) or fission

Fusion and fission are the most common forms of matter to energy conversion.  Neither, however, are REQUIRED.  Radioactive decay is a perfect example.  The interior of the earth is primarily heated by the decay heat of radioactive isotopes.  Neither fission or fusion contribute to this conversion.  The three damaged reactors in Fukushima, Japan as well as the spent fuel pools must also be continually cooled because of the Matter to Energy conversion of radioactive decay.  No Fusion or Fission is taking place (well, at least that's what Japan tells us - I have other beliefs, but that's for another discussion)..

PPtk

I am currently extremely busy with work. Please do not expect a response from me quickly. I will be dropping in as time permits, but the amount of time I can dedicate to responding to topics and PMs is very limited.

nekdo12
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Good news ! The technology in energy and batteries are so archaic it desperately need huge scientific research, the thing that is blocking the evolution is the oil based economic system.

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nekdo12 wrote:
radioactive decay=fission "In nuclear physics and nuclear chemistry, nuclear fission is either a nuclear reaction or a radioactive decay process in which the nucleus of an atom splits into smaller parts...":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission[/quote]

Thanks for quoting wikipedia.  Bill Nye the Science Guy, for the record, is equally frowned upon for quotes when talking about things more interesting and complicated than why solid water generally floats on liquid water.

fission is defined as the splitting of an atom into two smaller atoms.  Uranium 235, for instance, after being struck by a free neutron commonly fissions into xenon and strontium.  It can fission into many different things, but xenon and strontium are some of the most common.

Decay, on the other hand, does not create two atoms.  A single atom releases a Beta or Alpha particle, and sometimes one or more gamma photons.  It remains a single atom, but changes to a different isotope or a completely different element.  Iodine-131, for instance, typically decays by emitting a Beta particle and a gamma photon to become Xenon-131.

PPtk

I am currently extremely busy with work. Please do not expect a response from me quickly. I will be dropping in as time permits, but the amount of time I can dedicate to responding to topics and PMs is very limited.

nekdo12
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PilotPTK wrote:
Decay, on the other hand, does not create two atoms.  A single atom releases a Beta or Alpha particle, and sometimes one or more gamma photons.  It remains a single atom, but changes to a different isotope or a completely different element.  Iodine-131, for instance, typically decays by emitting a Beta particle and a gamma photon to become Xenon-131.

PPtk


Alpha decay-ejecting hellium nucleus. You get two atoms Wink
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85000÷7000=12.1Wh
I guess this is in small discharge current situation, just normal cells…

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