Am I over-reacting to lithium battery concerns?

LED Flashlights – General Info
1

This is my first post here but I’ve been a lurker for quite a while. I’m really just an enthusiast and don’t fully understand a lot of the technical stuff you all talk about but I’m learning.

I’m writing to get some opinions on whether I’m over-reacting to safety concerns with lithium batteries, especially considering my living situation, which I’ll explain below.

When I found out there were lights beyond Maglites, I kind of jumped in and bought three 2xCR123 lights, a box of Surefire CR123s, and a AAA EDC light (now with a 10440 in it) over a couple of months. Then I started reading about lithium battery explosions, fires, venting fumes, etc. and have alternated between thinking I know what I’m doing and shouldn’t worry about it to wondering why I’m messing with lithiums at all. Reading through all the threads and articles about battery safety has kind of made my head spin.

From what I’ve read, it seems that if good products are handled properly, the odds of having a problem are really, really slight. The complicating factor is I live in an apartment in the city so I don’t have a basement, driveway, backyard, concrete pad or place to store ammo cans, etc. so I have to be realistic in what I should have.

Right now I’ve been thinking that I’m probably over-reacting and should keep the CR123 light I like best, put a good protected 18650 in it (I have a Panasonic cell from MTN Electronics in mind) and buy a good charger as my current Xtar won’t handle 18650s. This way I avoid a multiple cell situation (safer, right?), have a quality battery, it and the 10440 would be easy to monitor and don’t have to spend a ton of $$ buying new lights, as much fun as that would be. Also, I do have a ZTS-Mini battery tester.

Or, since I still have most of a box of CR123s, I could just use single CR123 lights and not have to deal with charging (except the 10440) or the multiple cell complexity.

Or, I could just switch to AA lights.

Sorry for the long-winded first post and I’d like to hear (I think :laughing: your opinions.

2

Most of the lithium explosions have been with multi cell in series lights, so if you are worried going to single cell lights makes sense. Going to a protected cell will also reduce the risk. I wouldn’t trust the ZTS for making sure a pair of cells are the same charge level, it doesn’t have enough resolution. If you are going to run series lithiums I’d recommend getting at DMM even the cheap or free Harbor freight would be good enough for checking that two cells are the same voltage.

3

Personally I see no issue in using quality cr123 cells. When you see the millions of batteries sold and very few issues, statically the chance of you have an issue is about that of being struck by lightning. If you want to be extra cautious use a DMM and test your cells every time replace them in your light. Make sure you never mix new and old cells.

I prefer 18650 because of longer run times, but I keep primaries available in case of emergencies. If you start using unprotected rechargeable cells in series the risk goes up obviously but as long as you aren’t careless the risks are still pretty low.

Edit :

Forgot to mention practically every police department uses lights with cr123 in series for duty lights. To my knowledge the number of exploding lights on officers is virtually none. My guess is quality cells are big reason, I don’t know any department using no name generic batteries.

4

Series CR123 are said to be one of the most dangerous, just as you ask. Not sure why they are more dangerous than say 2 x 18650 though, my GUESS is they arent really as both are series. It might be because muggles tend to rummage through drawers looking for batteries and then use a mix of what they find, old and new cells, or at least old and older cells. CR123 would ft right in there in that regard, they unlike 18650s etc are readily available in supermarkets so more widely used. People tend not to toss a dead battery for some reason so they sit in drawers waiting for the above. So its just availability that makes series CR123 more dangerous (GUESS, not fact).

Li ion are dangerous because shit can happen and when it does, the hf gasses for example are not good, let alone shrapnel and the obvious boom. But so is petrol (gasoline), be respectful, and its generally good as gold. I have a 4sevens Quark Tactical 2 x CR123, that Ive never used. I have single CR123/16340 lights that I prefer to carry just because they pop in a pocket very discretely. Im aware of it and it concerns me that my reasoning (above) for CR123 being more dangerous is wrong.

Do you have a non flammable area, a tiled kitchen or bathroom? Charge in there if youre worried with the vent fan running. Its not a bomb in and of itself, its a vent of energy with heat made worse by the nature of a sealed light and the resulting pressure build up, the hf is the result of li ion. But thats in a light. A battery in a charger will just vent and shouldnt explode, just pop it in a small tin of some kind in a less burnable area of the home and run the exhaust fan. Probably best not to do do it while sleeping.

As someone said, a cheap reliable DMM is a good investment.

5

Just the fact that your concerned about the safety puts you far ahead of many people.
Agree with everything Ejected Filament has said.

What flashlights and chargers do you have?

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It's the mis-matched batteries that cause thermal runaway .... when one is going into reversal .

just stay with singke cell lights and life is easy .

Also don't buy harbor frieght crap meters lifes to short for garbage

if you want something cheap buy an older quality meter used...people don't normally abuse a multi meter and there are lots of nice used ones out there for cheap.

7

Let's put in perspective and let you decide. Do you own any of the following?

  • Cell phone
  • Laptop
  • Cordless drill
Guess what they use ;)

The key is quality products from quality manufacturers. Ideally, your favorite light has low voltage protection but that is not a deal-breaker. If not, try to fit a protected battery. Next up is a quality charger. Check HKJ's reviews for a charger that he recommends. Some have a tendency to overcharge and that's not good and that does not apply to Li-ion chargers only.

Last but certainly not least. QUALITY BATTERIES. Panasonic, LG, Samsung, EVVA, Sanyo. NO xxxxFire anything. If your light does not LVP..look for protected batteries If they fit

Follow those rules and your chances are greater to get hit by a train. :)
8

Some people like to make that comparison but its not really equal at all.

All of those have built in protection.
Laptops and cellphones: Will be using quality protection unlike some of the junk chips on clear over-wrapped 18650s. Have a built in quality charger chip, can’t easily use them with a junk charger.
All laptops, cell phone and the drill packs I’ve seen include ntc temperature sensors. Though I would expect there are some junk drills out there, who knows what they have.

Quality battery, quality cc/cv charger, quality protection chip, temperature monitoring = very tiny chance of problems. Still, occasionally cellphones and laptops do burn.

Some people, even on BLF, use junk batteries, junk chargers, abuse batteries and are generally careless. The safety of li-ion flashlights and e-cigs can be very different than that of laptops, cellphones and most drills.

The rest of your post, Bugsy36, certainly I agree.
Quality battery, quality charger, flashlights with low voltage warning (and/or protected battery), don’t be careless / respect your batteries and your chance of problems is small.

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lts GOOD you have a heathy respect/fear… that speaks voumes your not a “drooler”…

I years ago? got into reloading rifle and handgunm shells? Anyways, i was realy nervous about touching off my first reloads gulp

i also felt “silly” carrying a gun around all day every day for work… i mean, sitting in my car? theres a freaking GUN pointed right at my CROTCH, and its LOADED, you know? lol…

i initially resisted 18650 cells for flashlights… preferring “normal” rechargeable batteries i was familiar with….

its NORMAL and its GOOD to have initial reservations/respect/fear/etc…

…and after a couple weeks doing anything? it will have become “normal” and your fine.

trust me? you will like rechargeable 18650s…

look… if GOD wants you DEAD? your cellphone will explode, driving a little piece of plastic thru your temple (it happened ONCE)

if GOD wants you DEAD?? the sewer under your city housing block will fill up with GAS and explode the whole city block (it happens)

believe it or not?? going climbing, with a “registered” climbing instructor? is statistically safer than crossing the street after you look both ways… personally? my HUNCH is that using a li-ion rechargeable is statistically safer then going RAPPELLING, but… its just my HUNCH…

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You can’t keep an ammo can in an apartment? If you use batteries made from quality name brand cells (panasonic, sony, LG, etc.) and do not over discharge or overcharge them then you are right, the odds are slim there would be a spontaneous energy discharge resulting in a fire.

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First of all, thanks for all the replies. What I’ll probably end up doing is go the 18650 route in one light, sell the other two and maybe get a single cr123 light. I’ve also been looking at DMMs and will get one of those too - seems like posters in other threads like the Innova 3320 but I’ll do some more research. My cheap old Radio Shack analog one won’t cut it any more.

Halo asked what lights and charger I have now. Here’s the list:
Surefire GX2 Pro - the 200/15lm version
Fenix PD32
Nitecore P12

I’ll probably sell the first two although they were great when we lost power during Sandy for 4 days. The two AAAs are:

Tank 007 E09
Lumapower LM21

And my charger is an Xtar XP1.

One last question - I’ve read a million times to avoid batteries from XXXfire - but I’ve always assumed Surefires that aren’t counterfeit are ok - is that correct.

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Your best bet is to buy your batteries from a reputable source, if they seem too cheap to be true then they are, I’m in the U.K. so my supplier wouldn’t be any use to you but there’s one posts here that is well liked and trusted - Mountain electronics or something like that. RMM his username.
Any batteries can be wrapped in any brand’s wrapper that you want, available by the mile.

13

Fenix says the Fenix PD32 can use one 18650 instead of 2*cr123.
http://www.fenixlight.com/ProductMore.aspx?id=82&tid=9&cid=1

14

I don’t use any Li-Ion lights because I don’t have the time for proper care of the batteries so I just stick with AA mostly.

But I also have Li-Po batteries for my RC cars which have been neglected and are potentially more dangerous than Li-Ion.

15

Youre in the US, so Calvin from Illumn (member name here is CalvinIS) or Richard (member name is RMM) from Mountain Electronics will be a good choice for batteries/chargers/other bits and pieces if you decide to mod too. Both post here.

Illumn - http://www.illumn.com/
Mountain - http://www.mtnelectronics.com/

Both in the US.

Surefire is OK, its Trustfire, Titrafire, Uranusfire (not joking), and a million other variations of **fire that are trying to cash in on the Surefire name, then the Trustfire name. Believe it or not, genuine Trustfire WAS once an alright battery for cheap. They were good laptop pulls rewrapped as Trustfire. But now its anyone guess who is making them, and what they put the wrapper on. Anyone can buy the wrappers. They generally have dirt inside, with a smaller battery, claiming stupid mAh like 5000, then deliver maybe 800. And they can be downright dangerous, not simply poor performers.

Anyone claiming more than 3400 from 18650 is lying, and most claiming that are too. Trust fire lights can be alright hosts for modding too, and I think, again all these names are hit and miss as to being from a ‘brand’, they are all copied and stolen, I think some Trustfire lights are OK stock too as far as stock lights go.

What you buy at Illumn or Mountain, will be what they say it is. Prices are usually pretty good, use the BLF code (I think), and postage for US addresses is pretty reasonable priced, and FAST.

16

If you’d have thrown the stuff away and started a nation wide campaign to spread the word about the evilness of lithium cells, I’d have said you over-reacted…

But from what I can tell, your only reaction so far has been thinking about safety and airing concerns. I’d be reluctant to take any kind of advice from anyone who says that that is an over-reaction.

17

That won’t be true much longer. The Samsung 35E 3500mAh will supposedly be available in May and the LG INR18650-MJ1 3500mAh in June. Plus the Panasonic NCR18650G 3600mAh that is out now but isn’t very available.
But of course these will never be found under a junkfire or no name wrapper. Keeppower and EVVA are a couple of the lowest priced protected battery rewrappers that may use 3500-3600mAh when they become available.

18

Stick with quality protected batteries and chargers, not too much can go wrong, it’s good you have a healthy respect for the dangers associated with them from the get go.

19

That’s because you’re trying to get information by absorbing peoples’ opinions. That’s actually a symptom. Your brain is trying to warn you of impending danger. Not from the batteries, from the opinions of people whose opinions are largely based on the opinions of other people.

Welcome to the Internet.

Thomas Cardinal Wolsey said it best: “Be very, very careful what you put into that head because you will never EVER get it out”!

OTOH, the people who invented Lithium ION (please condition yourself as early as possible to discriminate between Primary Lithium and Lithium ION — that alone will put you head-and-shoulders above most of the opinions on the entire Internet) had to, as a condition of acceptance of their product, perform lifecycle and fully-destructive testing on their new product, or else they would not have been allowed to sell it. I hate to keep harping on Facts — and now I find that Sony has apparently pulled the manual from their WWWeb site. :frowning: I included that link anyway just in case they’re just cleaning the place up. Searching from the main page leads to the same PDF, so it may be back.

In any case, please allow me to recommend a habit of searching for the Lithium Ion Technical Manual until you can find one published by a manufacturer or the inventors (Sony and Asashi) of the technology. At a minimum, that should get your head to quit spinning. :slight_smile:

20

Its HARD to figure out who you can trust advice from… But I agree with you about all the weird batteries and codes for them… Its a little much at first. It will all slowly sink in… So? Just stick around.