Test/Review of Sony US18650VTC6 3000mAh (Green)

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wolfdog1226
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OK,,,,,WHAT IS ALL THE HUB HUB ABOUT?!!!!! Big Smile

Ok,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I started another test for BOTH batteries on February 9th, 2017.

BOTH BATTERIES CAME OFF THE CHARGER @ 4.20V.

AFTER RESTING FOR 1 WEEK:

BATTERY “A” WAS @ 4.18V

BATTERY “B” WAS @ 4.17V

These are certainly Acceptable and Normal voltages 1 Week after being charged! Wink

I am not sure why my first test had the voltage DROP from 4.20V TO 4.14V IN 8 HOURS!

I believe my cells are Fine, they are real and they should perform and last like my other VTC cells have!

Solitude breeds contemplation which creates clarity. 

Environment molds a person. Perseverance changes them. 

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Texas_Ace
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Wink
fuzun
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Why would invest in this if no flashlight demands such high level current? Is not NCR18650GA sufficient for all?

wolfdog1226
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fuzun wrote:
Why would invest in this if no flashlight demands such high level current? Is not NCR18650GA sufficient for all?

I believe my single cell “Modded” lights benefit from a VTC6/30Q over a “GA”.

That is what I was told by the guy who modded them, so I use them. Wink

Solitude breeds contemplation which creates clarity. 

Environment molds a person. Perseverance changes them. 

                                                                   WOLFDOG 

EasyB
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fuzun wrote:
Why would invest in this if no flashlight demands such high level current? Is not NCR18650GA sufficient for all?

For direct drive lights (like those that use a FET driver) the lower IR of high drain cells increases performance, even if the resulting current draw is not very high. For example, you might get 6A with a high drain cell and a single XPL but only 5A with the GA. In this case it is not a large increase in performance, but an increase nonetheless.

Also, some modded flashlights do demand >15A current from a single cell.

fuzun
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EasyB wrote:
fuzun wrote:
Why would invest in this if no flashlight demands such high level current? Is not NCR18650GA sufficient for all?

For direct drive lights (like those that use a FET driver) the lower IR of high drain cells increases performance, even if the resulting current draw is not very high. For example, you might get 6A with a high drain cell and a single XPL but only 5A with the GA. In this case it is not a large increase in performance, but an increase nonetheless.

Also, some modded flashlights do demand >15A current from a single cell.


Thank you. Nice response.
Lord_Niksidor
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I see all the 80°c ratings on this cell and was wondering, I’ve got a project going into my roof is probably 60-70°c max in summer (Australia) I checked today with IR thermometer it was 55. I’ve been researching what battery to use, the best I’ve got is an lgaahd2c1865 which says it’s rated discharge temperature is 70°C in the data sheet, that one’s from a dyson vacuum battery pack. All my other cells I could find data sheets for were only rated for 60°C.

My question is I’ve basically got 150uA continuous standby current and maximum 1a draw for maximum 10s once triggered, given your experience heating cells for fun do you think I’ll have problems with my single cell venting in my roof. Do you know of any high temperature tested cells other than this one? Any thoughts on long term operation of cells in high temperature… I imagine it will degrade capacity faster. Appreciate your input!

Texas_Ace
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Officially I would not recommend it, if it is a small project, you might consider using some eveloop AA cells instead.

Un-offically I leave some flashlights with cells in my car all year round and it can get up to ~120-140f in the summer in there. I have not had any issues and they hardly even self-discharge. I generally charge them once a year and they are normally still above 4V if I did not use them.

Lord_Niksidor
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Cheers Texas, I did think about that but eneloops are only rated for 50°c and as it’s my electronics design… It won’t work well off 2 AAs, low battery alarm kicks in at 3.1v, and I can’t use any buck/boost for the standby as it took me ages just to get the standby current that low, I’d never get close to it with a dc-dc converter. What’s the worst that could happen, with a high quality cell it’ll just vent and I’ll have a dead battery… Probably. I’m hoping someone might have some tips for higher temperature rated or safer chemistry but still 3.7v nominal battery…

Texas_Ace
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could you run 3x AA cells? It would only be 0.3V higher charged voltage.

If you put the cell in some kind of metal case that would protect any fire from escaping yet not turn into a pipe bomb, then I suppose it could work, really depends on your attic and how flammable it is.

I would basically plan on the cell venting, if you would not feel safe with it actively venting, then I would not use it.

Lord_Niksidor
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I could but I'm not certain how much safer  would really be. Given the rated temperatures on the cells, I would definitely exceed the ratings on the eneloops but I would not exceed the rating for the vtc6 or the Samsung 25s /25r, I would probably not exceed the rating for my lg cell (70°c). I had a bit of a fish around for data on eneloops behaviour at elevated temperature but couldn't find anything. Lions however I found this paper which shows thermal runway onset temperature for various charge states, cells that are not overcharged all went into thermal runway over 140°c which leads me to believe the data sheet. Unfortunately they didn't actually state which cell they tested.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279069810_Thermal_runaway_of_commercial_18650_Li-ion_batteries_with_LFP_and_NCA_catho

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Like I said I think you will be fine with the 18650 cells, I would just build it to handle a possible venting.

aeroden
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Sorry for necroing…

I just got two VTC6 that measure internal resistance of 47 and 67 mOhm on 1a discharge in my MC3000 charger. From what I read here it should be <<40mOhm. Did I get second-grade cells?

Update: Looks like MC3000 only measures IR in the beginning of the cycle. After dropping 400mAh, I restarted discharge and it measured 30 and 43 mOhm already. Does it make sense?

degman
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Yes. Battery chargers actually don’t measure Internal resistance correctly.

aeroden
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degman wrote:
Yes. Battery chargers actually don’t measure Internal resistance correctly.

Well, HJK says MC3000 does actually quote a good job on that: https://imgur.com/8KnUAqN
HKJ
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aeroden wrote:
degman wrote:
Yes. Battery chargers actually don’t measure Internal resistance correctly.
Well, HJK says MC3000 does actually quote a good job on that: https://imgur.com/8KnUAqN

Yes, but it do not eliminate problems with contact resistance.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

aeroden
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HKJ wrote:
aeroden wrote:
degman wrote:
Yes. Battery chargers actually don’t measure Internal resistance correctly.
Well, HJK says MC3000 does actually quote a good job on that: https://imgur.com/8KnUAqN

Yes, but it do not eliminate problems with contact resistance.

You mean resistance of the charger terminals?
After some more tests, it behaves as follows – I place VTC6 in, say 1st, slot. Start discharge. MC3000 measures IR about 50mOhms. About 200mA down, I restart the discharge program. MC3000 measures the IR again on start and now it’s down 5-7mOhms. Eventually when the battery was about 3.9v, IR stabilized at ~30mOhs, which is what is reported in the beginning of this thread.

So does IR changes (decreases) with discharge? Again, I was not touching battery/charger in that experiment – only stopped/started discharge program through the app.

aeroden
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HJK, I have read your IR measuring post [1] and it made me even more puzzled – you say IR increases as capacity drops, but I see the opposite. Unless it’s the temperature rise, which I doubt, since it was 1A discharge for ~30 minutes total and the battery was cold to touch (room temperature).

Ideas?

[1] https://lygte-info.dk/info/Internal%20impedance%20UK.html

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aeroden wrote:
HJK, I have read your IR measuring post [1] and it made me even more puzzled – you say IR increases as capacity drops, but I see the opposite. Unless it’s the temperature rise, which I doubt, since it was 1A discharge for ~30 minutes total and the battery was cold to touch (room temperature).

Ideas?

[1] https://lygte-info.dk/info/Internal%20impedance%20UK.html

IR do not increase before the battery is nearly empty, here is a curve from another battery:

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

aeroden
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HKJ wrote:
aeroden wrote:
HJK, I have read your IR measuring post [1] and it made me even more puzzled – you say IR increases as capacity drops, but I see the opposite. Unless it’s the temperature rise, which I doubt, since it was 1A discharge for ~30 minutes total and the battery was cold to touch (room temperature).

Ideas?

[1] https://lygte-info.dk/info/Internal%20impedance%20UK.html

IR do not increase before the battery is nearly empty, here is a curve from another battery:
!https://lygte-info.dk/pic/Batteries2012/Samsung%20INR21700-50G%205000mAh...!

Aha. OK, that still leaves the question why in my case IR value decreases as I pause and restart discharge cycle.

(HJK, if you think this comes to lack of knowledge on my side to understand this, please say it and I’ll stop bugging you Smile

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aeroden wrote:
Aha. OK, that still leaves the question why in my case IR value decreases as I pause and restart discharge cycle.

Probably the contact resistance that changes a bit, some of it can also be from a temperature increase.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

d_t_a
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aeroden wrote:
Sorry for necroing…

I just got two VTC6 that measure internal resistance of 47 and 67 mOhm on 1a discharge in my MC3000 charger. From what I read here it should be <<40mOhm. Did I get second-grade cells?

Update: Looks like MC3000 only measures IR in the beginning of the cycle. After dropping 400mAh, I restarted discharge and it measured 30 and 43 mOhm already. Does it make sense?

Are these VTC6 flat-tops and relatively new?

Try to clean the contacts on the MC3000 slots and also clean the VTC6 top & bottom first.
Then seat the VTC6 on the MC3000 slot.
Press both the UP and DOWN keys on the MC3000 simultaneously, it should show the IR readings, try to do it again while rotating the VTC6 cell and check if the IR reading changes significantly (usually it will change slightly for flat-tops, since rotating it slightly may make the contact slightly better or slightly worse, at least from my experience with my MC3000..

If I recall correctly, a good VTC6 will generally register somewhere around 25mOhms reading on my MC3000 (assuming the VTC6 is not very discharged, and not a really old/used up VTC6)

aeroden
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d_t_a wrote:
aeroden wrote:
Sorry for necroing…

I just got two VTC6 that measure internal resistance of 47 and 67 mOhm on 1a discharge in my MC3000 charger. From what I read here it should be <<40mOhm. Did I get second-grade cells?

Update: Looks like MC3000 only measures IR in the beginning of the cycle. After dropping 400mAh, I restarted discharge and it measured 30 and 43 mOhm already. Does it make sense?

Are these VTC6 flat-tops and relatively new?

Try to clean the contacts on the MC3000 slots and also clean the VTC6 top & bottom first.
Then seat the VTC6 on the MC3000 slot.
Press both the UP and DOWN keys on the MC3000 simultaneously, it should show the IR readings, try to do it again while rotating the VTC6 cell and check if the IR reading changes significantly (usually it will change slightly for flat-tops, since rotating it slightly may make the contact slightly better or slightly worse, at least from my experience with my MC3000..

If I recall correctly, a good VTC6 will generally register somewhere around 25mOhms reading on my MC3000 (assuming the VTC6 is not very discharged, and not a really old/used up VTC6)

Yeah, flat top and less than 10 cycles. Purchased several weeks ago (doesn’t say anything about their real age obviously).
Thanks for the hint about IR measuring shortcut – very handy!

I did some more tests including cleaning, rotating, etc., and results are below.

I got 2xVTC6 and 2xMJ1 from source A and 2×40T from source B.

both VTC6 and MJ1 on MC3000 show much higher, 20-30mOhm more on MC3000 when fully charged compared to highly discharged. Doesn’t happen with 40T – just 5mOhm variance.

Here are the details:

VTC6 1: 70mOhm at 4.21v <—- last charged with Lii-500S
VCT6 2: 35mOhm at 4.01v

When I charged them last time they started at 3.5v and both measured 32mOhm.
For comparison I have 2 pieces of 40T and they both measure 18-230mOhm regardless of the charge level:
40T 1: 20mOhm at 4.14v
40T 1: 24mOhm at 4.25v <—- last charged with Lii-500S
40T 2: 18mOhm at 3.73v

I then tested a pair of LG MJ1 and they show:
MJ1 1: 65mOhm at 4.14v
MJ1 1: 85mOhm at 4.23v <—- last charged with Lii-500S
MJ1 1: 55mOhm at 4.09v
MJ1 2: 70mOhm at 4.18v
MJ1 2: 53mOhm at 4.08v

All of the batteries were purchased during the last month and have less than 10 cycles on them.

What worries me is that when charged with Lii-500S they end up with more than 4.2v voltage. E.g. I measured voltage using all my instruments on VTC6 last charged with Lii-500S two days ago and got this:
MC3000: 4.21v
Lii-500S: 4.19v
Nitecore UMS2: 4.19v
eevblog BM235 DMM: 4.213v
Uni-T UT216C DMM: 4.207

Higher-end instruments show that battery’s voltage is above 4.2v. Does Lii-500S overcharge the batteries a little bit? I see that MC3000 by default won’t even start charging if the voltage is above 4.15v and once the charging finishes, the voltage drops to 4.17-4.18, while after Lii-500s it stays on 4.2v (and more as I see now). Topped up again my MJ1 from 4.14v to full on Lii-500S and once done, the battery voltage is 4.237v according to DMM and 4.23 at MC3000. And again with 40T on Lii-500S at 2A which ended up with 4.25v!

Is that Lii-500S safe at all?

EDIT: Found HJK’s review on Lii-500s [1]. I’ll ask him there: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/70947

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