Will the 21-70 Battery (a.k.a. 21700) Replace 18650?

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Lightbringer
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Enderman wrote:
It actually does, rectangles are 100% space efficient, cylinders are not.

You can fit more capacity per volume using rectangular cells.

Not in a tube. Big Smile

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Enderman
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Lightbringer wrote:

Not in a tube. Big Smile

True Silly the guy was talking about laptops tho.
Lightbringer
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I know.

Sux, though, that I can’t get any decent pax to scrounge for more 18650s anymore.

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sovereignknight
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So Now what? All these 18650 flashlights I’ve collected will become obsolete? I sure hope the 18650 stays around for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_3:16 

Flashlights:

x2 Sk68 modded 1 Nichia 319AT, 1 Cree XP-G3 - x1 Solorforce P60 drop in custom XM-L2 U4 1C, Qlight Rev.A 7135*8 3.04A Driver - x2 Lumintop EDC05 CW - x2 Jaxman E2L tripple XP-G2 S4 
x1 Jaxman Z1 Zoomie, w/ Cree MT-G2 Q0 LED - x1 Acebeam K40m thrower with MT-G2 Q0 LED - x1 Xintd SC-82 V5 Limited Edition C8, XM-L2 U4 1C, Qlight Rev.A 7135*8 3.04A Driver
x1 Convoy L6 moded with a Cree XHP-70.2 P2 1D LED - x1 Rare Olight x7 Maurauder with a Nuetral White LED - x1 Astrolux MF-01 Nichia 219c - x1 Astrolux MF-01 Cree XP-G3 - x2 Zebralight SC5w MKII  

x2 Lumintop Tool AA - x1  x2 Lumintop Tool AA 2.0 - x1 Lumintop ODL20C - x1 Lumintop GT mini - x1 Olight i3E EOS - x2 Zebralight SC600w Plus MK IV XHP 50.2 4500k 80 CRI - x1 Fenix CL30R - x1 Lumintop C01 Bike Light - x1 Lumintop Zoom 1 - x2 Zebralight Sc700d - x2 Lumintop Tool AA 2.0 Ti - x1 Olight I3T EOS

leaftye
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Enderman wrote:
leaftye wrote:
Lipo and 18650 isn’t a high or low end laptop thing, it’s a thin versus thick thing. There are plenty of thick high end laptops that have room the room for and use 18650’s, and there are plenty of low end laptops and tablets with lipo batteries.
Almost every single laptop these days uses a lipo because it is more space efficient, they don’t need any special cooling or durability for the battery. Old laptops used 18650s almost all the time. You will also never find a modern phone with a cylindrical cell either.

That does not refute my point. There are low end thin computers, and low end thick laptops. There are also high end thin computers, and high end thick computers. If you want to refute my point properly, show me proof that most high end thick workstation and gaming laptops have switched to lipos.

The cell phone makes no sense. Aside from early car phones, I only know of one cell phone since 2002 that has had a cylindrical battery, and it used a AA.

Laptops or cell phones, it’s about form factor.

The low mode should be lower.

leaftye
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I’ll oppose my stance. I searched for best gaming laptop, and the most expensive laptop in the first search result was the Razer Blade Pro at $4000. The 5th search result for this laptop shows that it apparently it has a lipo. You can tell because of the swelling.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/razer-blade-pro-2017-battery-bul...

I’m not a laptop designer, but I think it’s safe to say the lipo needed cooling or protection, or both.

The low mode should be lower.

thijsco19
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Don’t think it needed cooling, they would have added if needed.
Most if not every laptop (and smartphone and every other consumer device that uses a lipo battery) already has electronic protection.
Pretty sure this is just a problem with the battery itself. Just like the problems with the Samsung batteries.

In that case electronic protection doesn’t do anything, it needs mechanical protection like we see on the cylindrical liion cells. If it would have a venting option the battery wouldn’t swell.
But don’t know if that’s possible with the design of a lipo battery.

ZoomieFan
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snakebite wrote:
so has anyone seen anywhere to buy these 21700 cells yet?

https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-48g-21700-4800mah-flat-top-battery/

Chargers: 1xBasen BD01 5/5, 1x Gyrfalcon All-88 4/5, LiitoKala: 3x100 3/5, 2x202 3/5, 1x402 3/5., MiBoxer C4-12 3/5.
Flashlights: DQG Tiny III 26650 5/5, FiTorch MR35 3/5, Haikelite SC26 HD 3/5, Lumintop Tool AA/AAA 4/5, Nitecore LA10, Sofirn C01 BLF 3200k/5600k 2/5, Zebralight H600Fc 3/5.
Powerbanks: EasyAcc 26800 mAh 3/5, Xtar PB2 4/5, Xtar PB2S 5/5
Waiting for: (DQG Tiny) 21700 EDCs.

Scientist
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Found some interesting reading (at least to me) on the state of the battery industry. I will note that nowhere is battery use in flashlights mentioned in this report.
Annual Update on Li ion battery technology 2018

Please illuminate responsibly
Part time fragmented conciousness technician

UV triple using Sofirn C8F
395nm High Power LED in Sofirn SC31b

SubLGT
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The 21700 format is gaining traction with automakers and power tool manufacturers.

A SEP 2017 news story:
http://english.etnews.com/20170926200002

Quote:
…Battery manufacturers LG Chemicals, Samsung SDI, and Panasonic have started competing fiercely with each other in order to win a contract from British automotive manufacturer Jaguar as it decides to use cylindrical batteries for its next-generation electric vehicles.

…Jaguar decided to use 21700 cylindrical batteries for its next electric vehicle model that will be released in the future and started a bidding process for a potential supplier of these batteries. It is heard that amount of batteries that Jaguar is asking for is about 2 million batteries per year. Considering that about 7,000 cylindrical batteries are used for one Tesla car, this amount can produce about 28,000 electric vehicles annually.

Considering that amount of output of [21700] cylindrical batteries from South Korean businesses is currently about 1 million per year, this is a huge contract that is asking for twice that amount.

“Generally five production lines are needed to produce one million cylindrical batteries.” said a representative in this industry. “Whoever secures Jaguar as its customer, it will be able to grab opportunities to grow rapidly in the cylindrical battery business.”

At another Korean news site I read a report that Samsung has converted some of it’s 18650 production lines to 21700, to keep up with demand.

SubLGT
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A FEB 2018 news story:
http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/english/news/industry/20457-opportunity-t...’s-scarcity-secondary-cylindrical-batteries-emerging

Quote:
…The scarcity of [21700] cylindrical batteries set off by Tesla is marking them emerging as a new growth engine item for LG Chem and Samsung SDI. As US electric car maker Tesla’s battery plant Giga Factory failed to properly play its role, and demand for [21700] cylindrical batteries for electric vehicles has increased sharply, making the two companies consider expanding their production facilities…Samsung SDI is reported to be fully operating production facilities in Cheonan of Korea, Tianjin of China, and Seremban of Malaysia as demand for cylindrical batteries shot up.

…“Samsung SDI has been fully operating its cylindrical battery plant since several months ago and is currently considering whether or not to expand it,” said an industry observer familiar with Samsung SDI. “Currently, we are turning 18650 battery production facilities (18 mm in diameter, 65 mm in length) into 21700 production facilities (21 mm in diameter, 70 mm in height).”

…LG Chem is also in a similar situation. The company is also ramping up production of 21700 batteries. It is said that the company is developing a market in non-IT areas such as power tools by developing technology that can stably work despite external shocks by wrapping a special tape on an electrode. This is because demand is rapidly increasing not only in non-IT areas such as for power tools and wireless vacuum cleaners but also in the electric car market….

…Under these circumstances, as Tesla’s Giga Factory failed to work properly for the electric vehicle battery production, Samsung SDI and LG Chem are receiving unexpected windfalls…Panasonic, which jointly invested in Giga Factory, is unable to respond to orders from other customers [because it is] supplying Tesla with all of its cylindrical batteries produced in Japan. As a result, companies that need large batteries are turning their eyes to LG Chem and Samsung SDI as alternatives…

Has anyone noticed a shortage, or price increase, for Panasonic or Sanyo 18650 cells?

SubLGT
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A DEC 2017 news story:
http://english.etnews.com/20171206200001

Quote:
…Delay in production from Gigafactory, which is Tesla’s battery manufacturing facility, is leading to global shortage of cylindrical batteries. As Panasonic has given most of its supplies in Japan to Tesla, many small and large companies that are in need for cylindrical batteries are knocking on doors of Samsung SDI, LG Chemicals, and Murata (previously Sony)…

…Samsung SDI, LG Chemicals, Panasonic, and Murata are currently producing more than 80% of global cylindrical batteries (standards: 18650, 21700)…

… many other companies are having difficulties in making purchase orders and it will not be easy for them to secure additional supplies until the end of the first half of 2018…

“It is impossible to purchase cylindrical batteries within Japan and we were even notified by Panasonic that they are not going to sell cylindrical batteries anymore.” said a representative for a Japanese battery distributor. “It has come to a point where we cannot even purchase products from Samsung and LG and even products from Samsung and LG that were produced in China.”…

It sounds like Panasonic has converted many (or all?) of their Japan cell production lines over to 21700 from 18650, to make up for the shortfall at the Gigafactory in Nevada.

TheAuditor
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I think its happening now. I now own four 21700 flashlights and four 21700 batteries. They said that 26650 format was a dead end but lots of flashlights use em now. I suspect that the 21700 format will catch up fast.

Bonum commune communitatis.

Yarp.

WojtekimbieR
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I haven't been keeping up with the flashlight world for almost a year and a half. The appearance of 21700 cells that rival 26650s in terms of both capacity and output current makes me excited, I have to admit. Not sure how pocketable tube 21700 light will handle heat management with all that power, since they'll only be a fraction larger?

(edit: larger than 18650 lights)

Just for a moment... Okay I may stay a little longer

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