Dereelight DBS Aspheric throw figures (with new EZ900 0.9mm x 0.9mm WD pure cool white tint 1.5A 3SM pill)

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2100
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Not too big an issue with overcharging with IMRs. I mean i have overcharged many cells to like 4.24V and nothing happens, most chargers out there stop at that point more or less. Of course do not do that often as it's somewhat bad for the cell lifetime.

It is when you approach 4.30V then you need to start to be really concerned.  What charger are you using?

You need slightly more than 4X the lux for it to double the throw distance.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/trustfire-protected-16340-880mah-3-7v-rechargeable-li-ion-batteries-2-pack-24980

Why not get protected 16340s then, if you are afraid.  One of the cells go flat at 0.8 amps and the protection circuit cuts in immediately, no danger of reverse charging.  Pill fails, also cut in immediately.  IMRs are a good idea, but protected works better.  These have reasonable capacity, nearly 700mAh in a capacity test.

ILIKEFLASHLIGHTS
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gcbryan wrote:
ILIKEFLASHLIGHTS wrote:

And one more question.  If this light is such a great thrower, then why is it only about 250 lumens or so?  I guess I don't undertand how it can be brighter than the TK70 as for lux reading at 1 meter.  Please explain if you will. 

The Fenix TK70 is 3 XM-L's right? The XM-L emitter has a surface brightness that is less than a XR-E. So having 3 XM-L's doesn't make the emitter surface any brighter.

Those 3 XM-L's don't hit the same spot. They make the spot larger. Throw is about lux and not lumens. The XM-L's put out a larger wall of light but in any one spot the XR-E is brighter.

Take any of your XR-E lights that are driven at around 1A and take any of your XM-L lights that are driven close to 3A and shine them at a wall.

You will see that the center of the hotspot of the XR-E light is brighter than the center of the XM-L beam. The XM-L puts out more light (lumens) but the brightest part of the XR-E beam is brighter.

The brightest part of the beam controls throw because that's all that's left at that point.

Ok thanks for the seminar.  Damn we got some smart guys here.  I love it. 

FlashIight
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2100 wrote:

Not too big an issue with overcharging with IMRs. I mean i have overcharged many cells to like 4.24V and nothing happens, most chargers out there stop at that point more or less. Of course do not do that often as it's somewhat bad for the cell lifetime.

It is when you approach 4.30V then you need to start to be really concerned.  What charger are you using?

You need slightly more than 4X the lux for it to double the throw distance.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/trustfire-protected-16340-880mah-3-7v-rechargeable-li-ion-batteries-2-pack-24980

Why not get protected 16340s then, if you are afraid.  One of the cells go flat at 0.8 amps and the protection circuit cuts in immediately, no danger of reverse charging.  Pill fails, also cut in immediately.  IMRs are a good idea, but protected works better.  These have reasonable capacity, nearly 700mAh in a capacity test.

I don't really mind my cells losing lifetime. I mean, they're not so expensive that I can't replace them now and again. (:

I'm using a cheap DealExtreme charger that seems to have favourable reviews.  http://www.dealextreme.com/p/digital-li-ion-18650-battery-charger-6105

Of course, with this charger, I wouldn't be able to charge either the IMR 18350s or Protected 16430s. I'm not quite sure if I understand what you're saying. Do you mean to say that protected 16430s are entirely safe? Or just that they are as safe as protected 18650s with a LiCo chemistry?

However, when I said that I could experiment with multi-cell lights after being exposed to IMRs, I meant that I could try out some multi-18650 lights that I've had my eyes on for a while, y'know? I mean, 90000 lux is incredible, but it's not as practical as, say, 60000 lux with a reasonable amount of spill for less money. 

2100
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FlashIight wrote:

Of course, with this charger, I wouldn't be able to charge either the IMR 18350s or Protected 16430s. I'm not quite sure if I understand what you're saying. Do you mean to say that protected 16430s are entirely safe? Or just that they are as safe as protected 18650s with a LiCo chemistry?

There is no inherent bigger danger with multi-cell flashlights.  It's just that people use those blue Ultrafires cells (one might be 900mAh and the other 1600mAh, reclaimed notebook pack cells etc) that come with Ebay deals.  You see them with stuff like Trustfire triple XM-L even.  That's crazy.  A single cell flashlight with a driver failing (which will happen quite often) is even more dangerous than multi-cell usage.  The protection is there for a reason and with good cells you get better PCBs.  

 

There is no way you can be safe with 1-cell/2-cell without a DMM.  That is part of the hobby. Same as RC, same as a lot of other hobbies.

For those who are adamant that mult-cell = absolutely dangerous, then they are missing out a lot of the action.

I mentioned quite a number of times before, multi-cell operation is not dangerous.  Firing a 1.3G fireworks cake is more dangerous.

coolperl
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When I said earlier that MPP-1 is better host, I meant in terms of "reflector design". Not the manufacturing quality. As I remember, older DBS V3 with reflector and old pill (EZ1000 with 1A current) did something around 30K lux/1m. MPP-1 uses also EZ1000 and moderate drive level (~1A) and it's doing over 50K lux/1m. If it could use deree pill with EZ900@1.5A that would be interesting.

So... Can you screw the deree pill to the MPP-1 and take the results "reflector Vs. reflector" ?

2100
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coolperl wrote:

When I said earlier that MPP-1 is better host, I meant in terms of "reflector design". Not the manufacturing quality. As I remember, older DBS V3 with reflector and old pill (EZ1000 with 1A current) did something around 30K lux/1m. MPP-1 uses also EZ1000 and moderate drive level (~1A) and it's doing over 50K lux/1m. If it could use deree pill with EZ900@1.5A that would be interesting.

So... Can you screw the deree pill to the MPP-1 and take the results "reflector Vs. reflector" ?

Sorry, i think someone else said as well that Solarforce P60s is better (CL1H V4 is P60). hehe...  Sealed  Well yeah, the DBS reflector version is only 48mm head diameter anyway, and the MPP-1 is 56mm.   The DBS aspheric head is bigger than the DBS reflector head, not the same.   I'll see what the MPP-1 holds inside the head.

Actually i just re-measured, the DBS aspheric head is 52mm. It's definitely smaller than the MPP-1.

PS.  The Solarforce MPP-1 is probably not driving the LED at 1A.  I am measuring 0.817A at the tail with the 2 batteries.  With the same pair of batteries i am getting 0.760A for the DBS aspheric 1.5A pill.

2100
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Coolperl, i can't get the pill out of the MPP-1, really tough. Can yours budge?

coolperl
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Don't own MPP-1 now. I sold it a year ago... But from what I remember, it wasn't driven that hard.

mitro
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So the MPP-1 is still an EZ1000? Well there's an upgrade waiting to happen.

Chicago X
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Mine is EZ1000 for sure. 

mitro wrote:

So the MPP-1 is still an EZ1000? Well there's an upgrade waiting to happen.

http://wardogsmakingithome.org/index.html

War Dogs, Making it Home - Rescue Dogs for Returning Vets

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gcbryan wrote:
ILIKEFLASHLIGHTS wrote:

And one more question.  If this light is such a great thrower, then why is it only about 250 lumens or so?  I guess I don't undertand how it can be brighter than the TK70 as for lux reading at 1 meter.  Please explain if you will. 

The Fenix TK70 is 3 XM-L's right? The XM-L emitter has a surface brightness that is less than a XR-E. So having 3 XM-L's doesn't make the emitter surface any brighter.

Those 3 XM-L's don't hit the same spot. They make the spot larger. Throw is about lux and not lumens. The XM-L's put out a larger wall of light but in any one spot the XR-E is brighter.

Take any of your XR-E lights that are driven at around 1A and take any of your XM-L lights that are driven close to 3A and shine them at a wall.

You will see that the center of the hotspot of the XR-E light is brighter than the center of the XM-L beam. The XM-L puts out more light (lumens) but the brightest part of the XR-E beam is brighter.

The brightest part of the beam controls throw because that's all that's left at that point.

 

Exactly - a more extreme example would be a LASER- the Lumens might be very low relative to a White LED but the "Lumens per square inch" could easily be 20 times higher in the LASER- a more concentrated spot  of light.

yavi
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I think the throw from the emitter will depend on two parameters, one is as you said the surface emitting area, and the second is the angle the dome is designed to throw the light.


"The brightest part of the beam controls throw because that's all that's left at that point."

I do not agree 100% with that, if it was true, the lens diameter would not be important, but it is.

The bigger the diameter, the more amount of light it can get to throw it.

 

2100
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I need to get a needle nose plier.  I'm more interested in squeezing in a XM-L in the Solarforce MPP-1.   Cool  Not sure if the reflector would work for that.

gcbryan
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yavi wrote:

I think the throw from the emitter will depend on two parameters, one is as you said the surface emitting area, and the second is the angle the dome is designed to throw the light.


"The brightest part of the beam controls throw because that's all that's left at that point."

I do not agree 100% with that, if it was true, the lens diameter would not be important, but it is.

The bigger the diameter, the more amount of light it can get to throw it.

 

Of course. Emitter surface brightness and lens/optic diameter are what throw is all about. However the question I was answering had to do with how could a XR-E throw further than a higher output XM-L so I was pointing out that the brightest part of the beam is all that's left at distance.

As in... after a certain distance the less bright part of the beam will not be there and the brightest part is ultimately all that is left at that distance.
2100
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2 floors is wide?  I think that's very narrow already.   The distance is correct, 134m to be exact on the map but i am shooting downwards so it's ~ 150m away.

There is a misconception that an aspheric throws a laser-like spot with no spill, ie useless or just a flashaholic's fun toy nothing too useful in real life.  That is absolutely untrue. Remember, the very best high-end rhodoium reflectors do lose at least 85%, and the spill is not "reflectored".  In an aspheric, literally everything is projected forwards, the lens cuts 10% approx?    This a lot of this light gets to the hotspot.  In a ceiling bounce or integrating sphere, the spill light plus corona from a reflectored setup do account for quite a bit.

You can ask Saabluster the seller who does DEFT/DEFT EDC (his latest LED incarnation nets him 700k cd), he would tell you the same thing.  If you compare apples-to-apples, the Solarforce Masterpiece Pro-1 has a a very slightly smaller hotspot (10% smaller?), but gets about half of that candlepower figure.   Some may not believe it, but it's true.

yavi
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2100, I feel with an aspheric lens there is a bigger loss than 10%, it is said it can be about a 10% with a common glass, but the thicker it is the more losses you will have.

It is your fault, I will end buying the DBS head to play with it, it is difficult to believe with a big hotspot like that you can throw it 600m, I understand it can win the masterpiece pro-1, there is more than one parameter to achieve a greater distance, and in this case, it might be how good the lens is designed in terms of the angle, the lens quality itself etc, but I think on a same lens quality it should always throw further the smaller hotspot it has.

 

Just one more thing, did you have the chance to play with the flydragon MS2010 aspheric to compare?

2100
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yavi wrote:

2100, I feel with an aspheric lens there is a bigger loss than 10%, it is said it can be about a 10% with a common glass, but the thicker it is the more losses you will have.

It is your fault, I will end buying the DBS head to play with it, it is difficult to believe with a big hotspot like that you can throw it 600m, I understand it can win the masterpiece pro-1, there is more than one parameter to achieve a greater distance, and in this case, it might be how good the lens is designed in terms of the angle, the lens quality itself etc, but I think on a same lens quality it should always throw further the smaller hotspot it has.

 

Just one more thing, did you have the chance to play with the flydragon MS2010 aspheric to compare?

Maybe so, but if it's good quality glass it can reach ~ 10% range or even below.   Even the normal achromatic telescopes or photographic lenses with very thick lenses do not cut that much.  Lenses is not the same as glass.

Ok, just to set the record, i just measured it and it is about 16% cut. With and without lens measurement via bounce.  It's probably not very accurate but just take it as a ballpark figure. 

The CSM-360 Flydragon does not have enough surface brightness nor is the lens big w.r.t the big-ass emitter enough to out-throw this.

Ok, maybe let me break it down for you. We calculate distance via measurements.  With 90k cd (very conservative figure measured at 55 metres), it is 300m @ 1 lux amd 600m @ 0.25 lux.  The latter would be the ANSI standard. There is no guesstimation, hotspot size does not enter the equation.  I am measuring at 55 metres, not at 5 metres, not even at 10m which most would tell you "hey, that's far enough for throwers".  I use the same distance for my > 1 million cd throwers.  Tatjamagic said there is a difference in the lenses themselves even, some give a lot of chromatic abberation (the purple fringing around the spot) and some less.

 

2100
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I posted these pix in my HID big host thread but didn't post the pix in this thread, here goes.  400m target.  (Sorry for the light pollution, can't help it man)

Solarforce MPP-1

asd

ads

Fenix TK70

asd

 

LOL!

asd

 

2100
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I don't have the SR3800 pix.  But i do have this, the DBS vs Solarforce MPP-1.

asd

yavi
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2100 wrote:

yavi wrote:

2100, I feel with an aspheric lens there is a bigger loss than 10%, it is said it can be about a 10% with a common glass, but the thicker it is the more losses you will have.

It is your fault, I will end buying the DBS head to play with it, it is difficult to believe with a big hotspot like that you can throw it 600m, I understand it can win the masterpiece pro-1, there is more than one parameter to achieve a greater distance, and in this case, it might be how good the lens is designed in terms of the angle, the lens quality itself etc, but I think on a same lens quality it should always throw further the smaller hotspot it has.

 

Just one more thing, did you have the chance to play with the flydragon MS2010 aspheric to compare?

Maybe so, but if it's good quality glass it can reach ~ 10% range or even below.   Even the normal achromatic telescopes or photographic lenses with very thick lenses do not cut that much.  Lenses is not the same as glass.

Ok, just to set the record, i just measured it and it is about 16% cut. With and without lens measurement via bounce.  It's probably not very accurate but just take it as a ballpark figure. 

The CSM-360 Flydragon does not have enough surface brightness nor is the lens big w.r.t the big-ass emitter enough to out-throw this.

Ok, maybe let me break it down for you. We calculate distance via measurements.  With 90k cd (very conservative figure measured at 55 metres), it is 300m @ 1 lux amd 600m @ 0.25 lux.  The latter would be the ANSI standard. There is no guesstimation, hotspot size does not enter the equation.  I am measuring at 55 metres, not at 5 metres, not even at 10m which most would tell you "hey, that's far enough for throwers".  I use the same distance for my > 1 million cd throwers.  Tatjamagic said there is a difference in the lenses themselves even, some give a lot of chromatic abberation (the purple fringing around the spot) and some less.

 

The quality of the lenses is a lot, if we compare the lens of a telescope or a photographic lens that costs more than the whole flashlight, it might not be so fair, and the good photographic lenses have a really big diameter when they got a big zoom, or there are big aberrations on them otherwise.

I am not saying I do not believe the measurements you made, in fact  as I said I am very tempted to get one DBS for your fault haha, it is just I like discussing about it to find out the reason it is performing so well to you.

I was told by a friend who has the Flydragon's head with an SST-90 DD with 26650 MNKE it throws close to the 1000m distance, but I cannot assure it as it has not been in my hands to prove it, nor there are luxometer tests at big distances as you made to compare.

2100
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The Flydragon head is just 80mm, with the SST-90 in direct drive mode of about up to 15 amps and with direct copper to LED bonding it is possible.  1000m is out of this world.  You need 250k cd to do that for the target at 0.25 lux. If you look at CPF mod section there are very few folks who manages to do that, namely ma_sha, Saabluster and a few others, with huge lenses. 

This is with a 110mm lens, SST-50 driven to 9 amps, copper heat sink with active cooling.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?312107-SOLD-The-Led-Torpedo-the-longest-throwing-LED-spotlight

But with a 7 x50 bino (some light amplification) and a really dark site like in the desert, light at least 15m away to the right or left from the observer and a good target, eg a silver car, it is possible even with 100k cd @ 1000m. But that is not realistic.

In fact i rate my 3.8 million cd light to be good at 2km.  That is 1 lux at target.

66mm lens with XM-L driven hard gives you 100k, that's the ballpark of this Dereelight DBS aspheric light.  Smile

 

Anyway, more info on SST-90 on direct drive. 

http://www.lambdalights.com/varapowert.html

http://flashlightnews.net/forum/index.php?topic=2682.20

 

 

2100
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Actually you could get even more lux with the XP-C driven to 1A 

The die is 0.7mm x 0.7mm.  EZ900 die XR-E R2 is 0.9mm by 0.9mm.  EZ1000 XR-E R2 is 1.0mm by 1.0mm.   The beam is quite narrow, so it is not useful even at 100m  (handshake, causes the beam to dance around at target)

asd

yavi
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Thanks for the info 2100, I will ask to get some luxometer tests for the Flydragon head and SST-90, which I believe it was driven at 10A.

My plan as I thinks said before, is making a flood to throw with the DBS with an XM-L, by the time I get it I hope I can get a U3 (they are just about to be released).

With an XM-L U2 and a 38mm lens I got, I have managed to get around 400m throw "by eye" , do you feel the DBS will throw further than 400m with an XM-L?

2100
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I happen to have the T6 3C neutral white pill which has the same output as regular cold-white T6. I measured close just a wee bit over 50k for that. So that's about 450m throw for 0.25 lux.   I guess you live at a really dark site plus you had dark-adapted eyes. 

yavi
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Sounds good, what I do not know is if 0.25 lux is visible by eye to know more ore less what is the difference.

Don´t tell me why I have ordered the Ultrafire T8 with two lenses from Manafont, I don't feel it will win any of these throwers, but I wanted to give it a try as it is a new concept for me.

2100
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0.25 lux is just barely visible to the naked eye at a dark site. In an urban environment, it is very difficult to see but not impossible on a total white or metallic silver surface.  My external ambient is about 0.05 lux.

yavi
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It might be more or less what I see, I see the reflection on windows when moving left to right, as where I live there is a lot of light pollution.

yavi
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Sorry for being a pain 2100, I am like a 6 years old boy asking why are the clouds white.

Do you know the focal length for the DBS?

I feel it is also a parameter that can make a difference, and more with XM-L and its bigger emitting angle, the less focal length (the closest the die is to the lens) the more light it can throw as it will not hit the walls of the head.

yavi
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Yes Gorann, that is the one Smile

I do not know how it will perform, it was a bit like a blind purchase.

It has just 12mm travel, it sound good to me, lets see how good it concentrates the beam..

yavi
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Hehe, wait for me to see the results if you want to.

It might be a good deal or a total shit hahaha, I like the concept, and I hope it will  not just be a concept.

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