What happened to 219B?

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ToyKeeper
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What happened to 219B?

Edit: It looks like what happened is the ‘k’ in ‘sw45k’. It changes the tint quite a bit.

—— original post below ——

The popular Nichia 219B 4500K LED was everywhere, and then it was gone for a while, and then it came back… but now the new ones look different. Anyone know what happened?

New models look like a colder CCT, with less green and more blue. For example, here are four 219B 4500K lights. Left to right…

  • L3 L10 219B (~2013)
  • Custom brass 219B triple (~2017)
  • Custom 5×7135 219B single (~2015)
  • Noctigon KR4 Ti w/ 219B 4500K (2021)


(if pics don’t show up, it’s probably an issue with browsers trying to enforce https even on older http-only sites; try clicking on it to bypass that)

I noticed the same pattern with Fireflies lights. Here’s an original ROT66 219B (left) next to a newer Gen2 model (right):

I don’t know if the old ones were sw45 or sw45k, but the new ones are rated as sw45k. The ‘k’ is supposed to imply lower duv, meaning less green and more red. But it looks like there is also significantly more blue, so the new ones look like they’re not 4500K any more… looks more like they’re between 5000K and 5500K.

Has anyone been able to properly measure these? I don’t have the right equipment for that.

Is this a sw45 vs sw45k thing? Did Nichia change how the LEDs are made? Is it something else? I’m hoping someone has more information.

Edited by: ToyKeeper on 10/02/2021 - 02:29
Geuzzz
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I also think it’s k Vs non-k related. I personally find the k versions to purple. Rather have sw45 which are not green or purple, but maybe look a bit green next to sw45k.

Quadrupel
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Probably greenish low cri.
Unheard
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Different flux bins?

Yes, tints of my 219B sw45k D220 lights vary. Not extreme, but in comparison, the green/rosy perception phenomenon is clearly visible. D200’s also differ somewhat from each other. Thought that would be normal.

Smile, you cannot kill them all.

Bob_McBob
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From my understanding, 219B was never available in sw45 in R9050 or R9080. The original datasheet for NVSL219B-V1 (warm white) shows R70 and R8000 with CCTs from sw27 to sw45. At some point it was available in R85 according to Cutter, and the 2015 Nichia catalogue shows R9050 available in sw27 to sw40, with sw45 “under development”. When R9080 became available (early 2017?), sw45 was replaced with the special sw45k chromaticity rank, which is guaranteed to fall the below the BBL. My theory is this was necessary to produce the required R9 since sw50 was only ever available in R9050.

In theory, sw45k can be anything from 4260K to 4752K and Duv -0.0098 to 0.0000 at the rated 700mA, even ignoring other factors like reflector or optic choice, plus CCT and tint shift from low to high current. I have measured various batches at both extremes of CCT, though Duv tends to follow the flux rank, with D200 generally being much rosier than D220. I mod my own lights, so it’s hard for me to comment on any kind of general shift over the years.

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They feel different to me as well. The Convoy T2’s I just got in with the sw-45k are very, very rosy with no blue or green. I really like the ones from Convoy, I have a decent stock of the old ones and have many installed. To me the new ones feel cooler.

EDC rotation:
FW1A, LH351D 4000k (second favorite)
FW3A, LH351D 3500k
FW3A, SST20 FD2 4000k
FW3A, Nichia 4000k sw40 r9080 (favorite light!)
FW3A, Cree XP-L Hi 5A3
Emisar D4V2, SST20 4000k
S2+, XM-L2 T6 4C

Geuzzz
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Bob_McBob wrote:
From my understanding, 219B was never available in sw45 in R9050 or R9080. The original datasheet for NVSL219B-V1 (warm white) shows R70 and R8000 with CCTs from sw27 to sw45. At some point it was available in R85 according to Cutter, and the 2015 Nichia catalogue shows R9050 available in sw27 to sw40, with sw45 “under development”. When R9080 became available (early 2017?), sw45 was replaced with the special sw45k chromaticity rank, which is guaranteed to fall the below the BBL. My theory is this was necessary to produce the required R9 since sw50 was only ever available in R9050.

In theory, sw45k can be anything from 4260K to 4752K and Duv -0.0098 to 0.0000 at the rated 700mA, even ignoring other factors like reflector or optic choice, plus CCT and tint shift from low to high current. I have measured various batches at both extremes of CCT, though Duv tends to follow the flux rank, with D200 generally being much rosier than D220. I mod my own lights, so it’s hard for me to comment on any kind of general shift over the years.

You seem to be right. But I know they were often advertised as NVSL219BT-SW45/D220 4500K, 92 CRI.

Don’t know where the 92 cri was coming from then.

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Ok, so broke out some of my older builds with 219b sw-45k emitters… I could not have been more wrong! Side by side the new ones appear to have a hint of either green or blue! They still are not bad, just not the same.

Could this be a difference created by the increase in the brightness bin? My old ones were D180 and D200, I think the new ones are D220

Comparison, camera on 4500k had to almost over expose because of PWM on the left/old light. Very similar, but yet the left is a little different. Difference is more obvious on my camo shorts.

R Convoy T2 – L Balder 219b SW-45k D200

Sw45k-new-old

EDC rotation:
FW1A, LH351D 4000k (second favorite)
FW3A, LH351D 3500k
FW3A, SST20 FD2 4000k
FW3A, Nichia 4000k sw40 r9080 (favorite light!)
FW3A, Cree XP-L Hi 5A3
Emisar D4V2, SST20 4000k
S2+, XM-L2 T6 4C

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Both rosy, so probably 9080

ToyKeeper
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Quadrupel wrote:
Probably greenish low cri.

None of these are green or low CRI.

The camera’s white balance was set to match the hotspot of the original ROT66, since it has the nicest-looking beam. Any apparent green is relative to that. The manual white balance puts “white” at about 4500K with negative duv, so the blackbody pure-white line would look green in comparison. If I had set the white balance to match the spill instead, the hotspot would look pink. Or if I set the white balance to a standard “daylight 5000K”, the old 219B beams all look a bit like pinkish amber, while the new 219B looks more blue-purple.

In person, both old and new varieties look really good… but the new ones look colder.

mattlward wrote:
They feel different to me as well.

Yeah. They are different. It’s not just my imagination, since the camera can see it too. I’m just not sure exactly how they’re different, or why.

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Well said TK, but I think it is still the best out there. The new GT FC40 does give it a run, but not as perfect.

EDC rotation:
FW1A, LH351D 4000k (second favorite)
FW3A, LH351D 3500k
FW3A, SST20 FD2 4000k
FW3A, Nichia 4000k sw40 r9080 (favorite light!)
FW3A, Cree XP-L Hi 5A3
Emisar D4V2, SST20 4000k
S2+, XM-L2 T6 4C

Bob_McBob
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Geuzzz wrote:
You seem to be right. But I know they were often advertised as NVSL219BT-SW45/D220 4500K, 92 CRI.

Don’t know where the 92 cri was coming from then.

That was the R85 version released in 2013, which was CRI 92 typical and available in sw45. Those LEDs were widely used for years, especially since the 2015 2014 “V1” update that added R90/R9050 removed the sw45 option (again, listed as “under development” in the catalogue). 4500K was added back as sw45k in the R9080 release. It’s hard to determine exactly what was available at any specific time because many of the datasheets are gone, and the general LED catalogues weren’t always very accurate.

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I traded my d4v2 with 219b sw45k (bought July 2021) because it appeared to be more of a 5500k light, i liked the tint but it was wayyy to cool. Not worth the tint for me, i unfortunately have no experience with 219b's before this summer's round of them.

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Bob_McBob wrote:
Geuzzz wrote:
You seem to be right. But I know they were often advertised as NVSL219BT-SW45/D220 4500K, 92 CRI.

Don’t know where the 92 cri was coming from then.

That was the R85 version released in 2013, which was CRI 92 typical and available in sw45. Those LEDs were widely used for years, especially since the 2015 “V1” update that added R90/R9050 removed the sw45 option (again, listed as “under development” in the catalogue). 4500K was added back as sw45k in the R9080 release. It’s hard to determine exactly what was available at any specific time because many of the datasheets are gone, and the general LED catalogues weren’t always very accurate.

Mystery solved Smile I am pretty sure that led is used in tk’s L3 L10.

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First “New Coke”, now “new” 219Bs… Tired

They probably changed the “recipe” of phosphors for whatever reason, and ‘though they still technically meet spec, they’re still a bit “off” as far as old/new appearance.

Cost, color stability, heat handling, etc.

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

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I actually suspected both my L3 L11C and my first generation ROT66 were SW45, but didn’t have any way to verify. Both look very neutral to me. They only look rosy if comparing to lights with worse tint. It looks like Maukka tested his ROT66 at moderately rosy on middle outputs, and very rosy on turbo:

https://budgetlightforum.com/node/61987

I was not aware SW45 (non-K) was not actually available in R9080, but I’ll take Bob McBob’s word for it. I guess one or the other of my lights might have actually had R85.

Maukka’s ROT66 measurement technically meets R9080, but is consistent with Bob McBob’s statement about the typical performance of R85 219B’s.

Also, here is the chromaticity diagram showing the range of DUV possible within SW45K that Bob mentioned. It looks like the theoretical range is even bigger than he stated, but from tint measurements I’ve seen shared, the numbers he mentioned seem realistic.

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The recent 219bs are likely newly produced batches, Clemence bought some from Nichia directly, IIRC Simon mentionned this too.

I measured my E12R 219b sw45k bought last December here : https://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1739695#comment-1739695

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ArtieT59 wrote:
I traded my d4v2 with 219b sw45k (bought July 2021) because it appeared to be more of a 5500k light, i liked the tint but it was wayyy to cool.

Yeah, that’s the same reason I haven’t used the newer ROT66 much. It looks like it’s 5500K. Granted, it’s the best-looking “5500K” I’ve ever encountered, but I was hoping for more a neutral CCT instead of a colder shade.

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Without spectrometer test it just quess…

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They suck, that’s what happened now Thumbs Up

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Geuzzz wrote:
Bob_McBob wrote:
Geuzzz wrote:
You seem to be right. But I know they were often advertised as NVSL219BT-SW45/D220 4500K, 92 CRI.

Don’t know where the 92 cri was coming from then.

That was the R85 version released in 2013, which was CRI 92 typical and available in sw45. Those LEDs were widely used for years, especially since the 2015 “V1” update that added R90/R9050 removed the sw45 option (again, listed as “under development” in the catalogue). 4500K was added back as sw45k in the R9080 release. It’s hard to determine exactly what was available at any specific time because many of the datasheets are gone, and the general LED catalogues weren’t always very accurate.

Mystery solved Smile I am pretty sure that led is used in tk’s L3 L10.

I maybe am confusing the L10 and L11. There might even be 219a in that light.

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iamlucky13 wrote:
I was not aware SW45 (non-K) was not actually available in R9080, but I’ll take Bob McBob’s word for it. I guess one or the other of my lights might have actually had R85.

Maukka’s ROT66 measurement technically meets R9080, but is consistent with Bob McBob’s statement about the typical performance of R85 219B’s.

Also, here is the chromaticity diagram showing the range of DUV possible within SW45K that Bob mentioned. It looks like the theoretical range is even bigger than he stated, but from tint measurements I’ve seen shared, the numbers he mentioned seem realistic.

As far as I know, any R85 219B would be the original version, which looks quite a bit different and has a higher Vf.

Edit: I take that back, when djozz was reviewing R85 from Kaidomain in early 2014, they already looked like the current version: https://budgetlightforum.com/node/27652

I don’t have any reason to suspect the original ROT66 didn’t use D220 R9080 sw45k as Fireflies claimed. I believe they ordered an entire reel straight from Nichia, and I seem to recall the label being posted somewhere. The limits I gave are calculated from the CIE coordinates in the datasheet and are specifically at the rated current, so in actual use sw45k can be much rosier (D200 often measures -0.0180 at 3A in an SC64c). The “official” spec is 4260K to 4745K at 700mA. All my ROT66s measure reasonably close to known D220 reels I’ve used.

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Quadrupel wrote:
Without spectrometer test it just quess…

Yes, the quality of data is much higher with a spectrometer than it is without. Comparing visually against a few dozen lights with known tint bins is better than nothing, but a spectrometer would be even better.

Fortunately, Bob has a spectrometer and rather a lot of experience with 219B LEDs… so I’m inclined to trust what he says.

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Geuzzz wrote:
Geuzzz wrote:
Mystery solved Smile I am pretty sure that led is used in tk’s L3 L10.

I maybe am confusing the L10 and L11. There might even be 219a in that light.

I have the L3 L10 in both 219A and 219B varieties. The one in the picture is 219B.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
Geuzzz wrote:
Geuzzz wrote:
Mystery solved Smile I am pretty sure that led is used in tk’s L3 L10.

I maybe am confusing the L10 and L11. There might even be 219a in that light.

I have the L3 L10 in both 219A and 219B varieties. The one in the picture is 219B.

Thanks for clarifying.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
.

the 3 left greener ones, are older 219b 9050. could be d240

the more violet one on the right is sw45k 9080 (could be D200 or D220)

——

I have bought sw45 non K 9080 from Andy,
second from left:
.
(sw45 9080 is less pink than sw45k 9080, but more pink than sw45 9050)

Ive also bought sw45k D200 and sw45k D220, they differ in output by 10%, and they vary in how pink the Tint is, as McBob said, generally lower bin, more pink (not always, there can be bin overlaps)

.

the violet portion is what makes the sw45k work so well during the day, without being green at night

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Bob_McBob wrote:
in early 2014, they already looked like the current version:


That looks like a 219A, not 219B.

Here, I’ve got a 219A on the left, and a 219B on the right:


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ToyKeeper wrote:
Quadrupel wrote:
Without spectrometer test it just quess...
Yes, the quality of data is much higher with a spectrometer than it is without. Comparing visually against a few dozen lights with known tint bins is better than nothing, but a spectrometer would be even better. Fortunately, Bob has a spectrometer and rather a lot of experience with 219B LEDs... so I'm inclined to trust what he says.

True. A spectrometer is the end all be all, but that does discredit our own eyes. And regarding the idea of "you like what you like", it is obvious if the old is different than the new. It doesnt matter in this situation "by how much exactly" unless that is in fact what the person wants to know. And in fact, that was what TK had originally asked, but not what they or I were referring to in the above comment. We were just simply insinuating COLD LIGHT = BAD LIGHT LOL

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ArtieT59 wrote:
We were just simply insinuating COLD LIGHT = BAD LIGHT
the new sw45k has different Tint, but not different Color Temperature

the old sw45 was greener, and had lower Red output (CRI R9), but it was not Warmer

TK’s wall photo shows Tint differences, more than Color temperature differences in those lights..

the differences in R9 wont be apparent in a wall shot. I find palm shots helpful to compare the amount of Red being produced by an LED.

3000k 100 CRI (incandescent):
.

3000k low cri led
.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
That looks like a 219A, not 219B.

You’re right, the “V1” update was before my time in flashlights, and I was always under the impression there was a noticeable physical difference too, but that is definitely a 219A.

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Tint variations of 219b 4500K 9080 LEDs:

.

although the Nichia sw45 (non K) is greener than the others, it is more pink than this cree:
.

.

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