UK Knife Regulations - Flippers No Longer Legal or Customs Screw Up?

EDC Gear for Flashlight Carriers
1

Hi folks this is my first post here so please excuse any transgression.

I ordered a Ganzo FH13 ( Knife Firebird by Ganzo FH13-SS online catalog ganzoknife.com, description of Knife Firebird by Ganzo FH13-SS, characteristics Knife Firebird by Ganzo FH13-SS ) from China early September. It arrived at UK Customs late September, stuck there, and I received a Notice of Seizure end of October. All the Notice says, is that the item in question is a “Flick Knife”, and that I have 30 days to appeal before ownership transfers to them.

Since I did not know if I was sent the wrong item (e.g. a Ganzo G707 is a flick knife), or UK Border Force made an incorrect assessment, I emailed them asking for further details. Today I received a photo of the FH13 by post, so I wasn’t sent the wrong knife.

As far as I can see, the FH13 is just a frame lock knife like numerous others for sale in UK. If I had wanted one, for the sake of argument, Amazon.co.uk is functionally identical, and can be delivered to to my door tomorrow.

Given the way UK Border Force is organised, they will not review the legality of the seizure without an official appeal, so I have only two options: 1) give up, let them confiscate it and get my money back from seller/Paypal, or 2) appeal the decision, which, to my surprise, will apparently mean the next thing I see is them at (Magistrate) Court. The rules are explained here:

I said I am surprised, because I would have thought pre-action protocol should exist for both sides to understand the other’s position - e.g., I do not understand why the knife is considered a “Flick Knife” - “Flick Knife” have been banned in UK for decades, yet knives just like the one I ordered are widely available in UK today.

For pre-action protocol to be dispensed with, would mean a potentially gross and unnecessary waste of court time and legal costs. This is significant, given such costs could be awarded against me if I lose an appeal.

Why could I lose? Well the legal definition of “Flick Knife” did change very recently, on 14th July 2021 to be exact, see e.g. https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offensive-weapons-knives-bladed-and-pointed-articles:

“Possession of certain prohibited knives: Section 1A Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959
(Summary offence)
This was introduced by section 44 OWA to prohibit the possession of flick knives or gravity knives. Also note the amendment to the definition of ‘flick knife’ created by section 43 OWA.- any knife which has a blade which opens automatically either from the closed position to the fully opened position, OR from a partially opened position to the fully opened position, by manual pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the knife.”

While previously, a flick knife is “any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife”.

The change is the result of a 2018 bill. The definition’s lack of clarity (which apparently was not included in public consultation for the bill), was a subject raised by a Shadow Home Minister, see e.g. Amendments to the definition of “flick knife”: 6 Sep 2018: Public Bill Committees - TheyWorkForYou

Unfortunately, the response (by a Home Minister) was as clear as mud. For whatever reason she indicated a “thumb stud” is ok, so presumably also a “Spyderco” thumb hole, but what about a flipper tab ( https://www.bladehq.com/cat—Knife-Opening-Mechanisms—3629)?

She talked about the deployment speed being the issue, but speed is not mentioned in the legislation.

If knives with flipper tabs are considered “Flick Knife”, then all such knives would now be illegal to own, not just carry, let alone sold by Amazon UK.

Ironically, an M16 like the one I could get from Amazon tomorrow is considered by many to have popularised flippers (How did the 'Flipper' get so popular? »).

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Weird forum to pick to post your woes, but I feel for you. There are some U.K. forums that might offer you decent advice and better advice, BushcraftUK, EdgeMatters, but I think you’ll get this same answer.

It’s been a thing here in the U.K. for years, flippers getting seized. I know it stings a bit but I’m afraid you’re gonna have to suck it up, I’ve lost several over the years and they weren’t even flippers, just knives like the Spyderco Poliwog, and a Benchmade axis lock. They were deemed gravity knives as the blade can be opened by centrifugal force. Which many knives can of course. Heinnie Haynes don’t even bother selling flippers anymore, and they’re a big knife supplier who just can’t be bothered with the import hassles.

There’s no way you can argue it, you’ll not get your knife, putting in a PayPal claim isn’t fair on the company that sent it to you. If you take it to the courts it’s very likely it’ll be you who pays the costs and you still won’t get your knife. Honestly, just write it off and carry on.

U.K. knife law has never been clear, the more recent legislation regarding assisted openers wasn’t made clear or obvious, and nor was there any amnesty to get rid of them. There will be hundreds of people with old Kershaw Ken Onion assisted openers like the Leek, Shallot etc that don’t realise they’re breaking the law for even having them in their own home.

3

Dam government over-protection in action again. :person_facepalming:
If guns, knives, drugs were banned the criminals will still have them and we could be vulnerable if we allow it.
RichH is correct, write it off as a learning experience and circumvent the problem of customs inspection. :wink:
.

4

I thought a gravity opener referred to a butterfly style knife.

Calling an torsion bar knife a “flick knife” is a new weird wrinkle…… but it does fit the new definition “opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife”

Thumb studs would still be legal as they are on the blade, torsion bar is in the handle though. In the past torsion bar technology was allowed since the knife does not open “automatically” as the blade can be prevented from locking into position fully by simple reverse pressure or obstruction.

5

These laws were never intended to disarm criminals.

6

My advice to you (not meant to be ironical/cynical) take your loss and go on.
Even in US there have been lawsuits about spring assisted openers, and the outcomes were never identical and hardly ever predictable. Problem is: prosecuters and judges are lawyers, and those are great with words, but not always with practical things. Sometimes they use words/terms that are not applicable to the item they are discussing.
UK lawmakers are even more “concerned” about the safety of the public. Even eating an apple in a public place using a knife that is not very obvious a table knife can get you into trouble. Summary: the institution that has your knife does not want you to have it.

The (financial) pain lies in the fact that you are allowed to buy a knife from a country where is it legal to sell such a knife, but you are not allowed to use (or even own) such a knife in your own country.

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Unfortunately, these things happen all the time and the consumer does end up paying as sellers have to mark up prices to cover the expected costs of these customs problems. I also would just give up and potentially repurchase if the seller is willing to send the knife again. Sometimes, a different result will occur with someone else handling the package or if the package is just not checked.

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Gravity knife covers anything where the blade can be opened by gravity. That’s from the German Paratroopers knives in the link below to, technically, a Spyderco Para 2 or most of the axis locks where the locking mechanism frees the blade when depressed allowing it to drop out.

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> I do not understand why the knife is considered a “Flick Knife”

customs made a mistake…
it is a Flipper Knife,

not a “Flick Knife” (switch blade)

“”banned knives include the following list”:https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/ct/uk-knife-laws.htm:

flick knives (also called ‘switchblades’ or ‘automatic knives’) - where the blade is hidden inside the handle and shoots out when a button is pressed Please note: assisted openers where you push a flipper or thumbstud to open the knife are ok for use at home!”

10

Learned something new today. Thanks!

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Customs have repeatedly “made mistakes” since I’ve been involved with knives here in the U.K. There is nothing to be gained but a headache from arguing the point. I have even seen a Spyderco UKPK seized, (specifically designed by the U.K. based design team to be legal in every aspect). In the case of the UKPK, it was challenged by the buyer and he did actually get his knife.

Quoting from a sales site rather than actual law isn’t helpful. But the law is still a little ambiguous. Here how it stands after the 2019 Amendment.

‘other device which is contained either within the knife or is attached to the knife’ kinda covers anything from a thumb stud, blade hole, flipper tang. Not that they are specifically or definitely illegal, but the option is there in law should there need to be a prosecution. What we tend to rely on here is discretion, wave it in someone’s face = probable arrest, whereas real world use like opening a packet of food or cutting string (the actual tool stuff) isn’t likely to land anyone in trouble.

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I agree with RichH. Just write it off as a learning experience.

  • Dont’ appeal. It’s not worth the time, hassle or risk of losing your case over a $41 knife.
  • Don’t open a PayPal dispute. It’s not the seller’s fault Customs confiscated the knife.

Regarding the legal interpretation and whether Customs was right to confiscate the knife:
Customs might be right… or maybe they made a mistake. It sounds like the law in the UK changed a few years ago and the new definition is a bit vague. It may be more helpful to check with a knife forum, preferably one active in the UK.

It would probably be a good idea check before purchasing a similar knife from a UK-based shop.

13

That’s crazy that they regulate knives. It’s not like you can rob a bank with a knife. I can see areas where people are afraid of guns… I’m in the US and I have a dozen autoknives and I pretty much always have one in my pocket

14

Just don’t bring it to a gunfight…… :slight_smile:

Seem to remember that when automatics or switchblades were shipped the spring mechanism has to be sent as a different parcel, that may be for international though. Long time since I was on those forums.

15

Get a UKPK - great knife!

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I was using my Microtech DA today while I was packing some boxes with duck tape. Super handy to pop the blade out, cut the tape one handed, then retract it. I can’t imagine betting my life on a knife though. I carry an ASP tactical baton for self defense… and a Glock

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Hi everyone, feel free to state the relevant laws and regulations as they apply to the case of the OP, but please be careful to avoid political and other controversial subjective comments relating to this topic. Thanks!

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Here you go my friends. Looks like it only has info for USA Knife Law - KnifeUp

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My feeling is that a flipper protrusion on the back of the blade does not qualify as a “device” (a button is a device), but the others are correct: you’re not going to get that knife back, so chalk it up to experience and move on.