Ill just start with saying that my observations that lead me to starting this thread is done over the course of about 1 and a half year. Its way more than "some guy had a light with that many lumens with those emitters, and some other guy had a fairly similar light with that many lumens and and some other emitters" and then drawing conclusions.
Im not claiming to be correct. My observations could be a off, and my thoughts based on those observations could be even more off. But I think that many of the variables will average out, and some clear patterns can be seen. For those who thinks its imposibble to see these difference due to too many variables. I could certainly be up to taking some bets on how various peoples numbers compares to each others.
HKJ, sorry, should not have put you one the list.
Texaspyro. I pretty much agree. ANSI FL1 numbers does not mean much. They are all over the place from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some manufacturers even seem all over the place from light to light compared to others. But, if someone buys 10 different Fenix lights, and use those for calibration. And some other guy does the same. Im quite confident they will be close and "on the same page". Which makes them fairly comparable and certainly much more useful then the wide spread many have today with their calibrations. Many have used Fenix lights as a reference. And that is an example of something that can help people to get their calibration closer.
And yes, there can 30% difference in the same cheap and similar named lux meter. Some meters does have fairly good consistency though. This is why its important for everyone to calibrate their lux meters as well. But right now, I get the impression that the lux meters with the highest possible numbers have become the benchmark for many people.
I just took your number from OP in the K50 mod thread. Ryan put it there for comparisons with others. This will always happens. Someone posts a number. Others puts those numbers on a list in order to try and get useful comparisons. Comparisons will not be useful when people on a list knows that their calibration is consistently higher or lower with others. On certain lists, many readers will not be aware of who did the different numbers, and how the calibration compares.
You can always find ANSI rated flashlights that you match well with or that makes your numbers seem "conservative. But what matters is peoples averages.
Ill quote a recent post from you.
"There seems to be two camps on lumens and kcd measurments - mine, rdrfronty, and DBCStm seem to agree pretty closely, a couple of other BLF'ers also. But then there are selfbuilt's and some others that range lower."
Clearly you have noticed this as well. That is because of averages. Some people consistently have a well match. And then many other people have consistently lower numbers then you guys. When it comes to lumens especially. Who else than you, DBCstm, Richard/RMM, rdrfronty and manxbuggy have as high lumen numbers as you guys? Does anyone have a calibration that consistently puts out higher numbers?? (Personally, I have not noticed that)
Ill ask the same about lux. Does anyone, or several members have a light meter or lux reading that seems to have higher numbers then you guys, most with LX1330B? (Personally, I doubt many people with different meters are much likely to get higher numbers)
Does many people have lower nubers? (YES!)
Im not trying to prove anyone wrong. Im just saying that people are not on the same page in terms of calibration, and that changes can be made in order to get people closer.
[quote=DBCstm]
Yes, I use a LX1330B. You will probably find that myself, rdrfronty, Tom E and Richard all have similar results from lights, because we're all using the same meter and same base system. rdrfronty and manxbuggy1 spent many hours, days, weeks even, testing as many verified lights as they could get their hands on. (and their hands hold a LOT of lights!) My own box was verified against theirs, and with 20 or more of their own verified lights. So I feel confident that the results are accurate enough for me to base my builds on.
[/quote]
Yes, I have noticed that you guys have similar results. You guys are on the same page. Ofcourse, there will be some natural minor differences from time. On average, you guys always have the highest numbers. All of you, at least you, Tom E, and Richard have measured a stock TK61 to be about 1200 lumen just to use one example (if I remember correctly). All of you will also measure higher lux compared to stock values. While many others will be close to the stock numbers from Fenix.
The point is, if you compare your numbers with several other guys who have also spent a lot of time measuring lights and getting their calibration right. Your numbers will generally be higher on average. I expect that you guys will be roughly 10-22% higher on average when it comes to Lumen compared to say, Selfbuilt and JMpaul320. Although, there will be exceptions that will show quite similar numbers.
I cant say for sure, but selfbuilt measured Supbeam X60 to about 5100. _the_ measured it marginally higher. I would not be surprised if you measured it to 6000 lumen. I expect your measurement to show at least 5500 lumen. Selfbuilt and _the_ both measured that light to 160kcd. Spot on! I can almost guarantee that you will measure it higher.
Here your can see some of Selfbuilt work when it comes to calibration. Link 1. Link 2. JMpaul320 have a thread here. He measures lights for people, and also do a lot of measurements on vinh lights. (same light meter as you btw, with same high numbers when it comes to kcd. Certainly a difference in lumens though).
These are two examples of guys who have done calibration work. Someone correct me if im wrong, because Ill throw out some names that Im not 100% how their measurements compares as I have not studied them properly and cross checked and done lots of on paper comparison. But Relic38, JohnnyMac, _the_ in general seems to be closer to Selfbuilt and JMpaul320 in terms of lumens. Here are 5 different people who seems to be able to get not perfectly within the each other, but not that far off on average when it comes to lumen and lux. Im quite confident that these guys are closer to eachother than the "high numbers" camp.
The funny thing is that the gap between these two "camps" are so large that I on several occasions in a row have been able to put my numbers in between them. To me, that means people in the "two camps" are not on the same page.
Where should mine and other peoples calibration be pointed towards?
The issue for me, is that I don't know where I should try to aim my calibration towards out of these two camps. Morally it makes more sense to aim towards the lumen numbers that all the different people who reviews lights and independently have come up with their own calibration that seems to be somewhat similar. I believe these numbers are realistic and certainly doable based on Cree`s own numbers. I believe I would be more in line with more people who have done independent calibration work and come to somewhat similar results. I believe my numbers on average would be more comparable with ANSI numbers from different manufacturers that way too. Which means that my modded lights can more easily be compared with manufacturer ratings (even though that will often be a bit off depending on manufacturer).
But, its more temping to aim towards the guys with the high numbers. Simply because it sucks having low numbers when the typical people I compare mods with have a higher calibration. I mod lights, and most of the numbers seen from modded lights on BLF are from the guys in the high numbers camp. And that camp is growing. Tom E always used to say, that at least my numbers are comparable with rdrfronty if questioned. And for a long time DBCstm have joined. And he shares a ton of numbers. And RMM/Richard is on that same calibration. And more people want lights and numbers from him. And those people might start using those lights for reference... It seems to be a growing camp there. And that does not help anyone...
For me personally, id like to see everyone try and meet in the "Average ANSI/Typical reviewer/conservative" call it whatever you will camp. I don't see that these people will increase their numbers based on all the calibration work many of them seem to agree on, and how close they on average are to many of the lights they review.
Im not sure what the high lumen camp have to loose in order to meet the others. Except getting results that will be more comparable with a larger number of people. Which I think would benefit everyone.
I do know that if I want my numbers to be in line with most modders who share numbers on BLF, I will have to add even more to mine despite that Im already on level or slightly above many others. The lumen gap is quite large IMO.
When it comes to lux. I know that my lowest reading meter might need around 30% increase to match the high numbers camp. My other meter might need around 15% increase. (Sure, some other guys have cheap lux meters that does match lx1330B, or are not far off.) But in general, if I increase my numbers more, ill create an even larger distance to some of the people and manufacturers that Im already above.
If someone wanted to get a reference light for calibration (lumen and lux). It would have to be several reference lights, with different beams and tints, and superlow and superhigh lumen readings in order to make it worth it.
If these lights were verified and shipped around as a calibration reference to different members. Would all the guys in the different "camps" adjust their numbers accordingly so that everyone could be as close as possible??? Unless that happens its not much use.