Hey texaspyro, nice to see (yet another) eBiker up here… hehe 
I bought a few dozen out of China. Nice cells.
These are nicer:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/A123-20AH-Lifepo4-Battery-Qty-4-/300797711332?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item4608f0d3e4
I used 32 of them (dual 16S packs) as the backup supply in my 180,000 lumen device. Most people are seeing 18.5-19.5 Ah out of the low cost pouch cells that are available. You can get them for around $25-$30 each in medium quantities, shipped, out of China… I’d buy from the US sellers though. Make sure they have the full length tabs.
And Fisker used the A123 pouch cells in their car. Large modules are available surplus from China. Shipping is a beeotch, though.
Sweet data.
The extent to which temperature affects voltage under load, voltage at 90% DoD, etc. is eye-opening. Cool, thanks.
When I said I had never seen any in the wild, I was specifically referencing the AHR32113M1Ultra-B that Slim Pickens linked to. I have dozens of other cylindrical and prismatic A123 Cells, and yes, they’re awesome. The AHR32113M1Ultra-B in particular, however, I have never seen available for sale.
Even A123RC.Com that was linked above only has the AHR32113M1Ultra; Not the B
PPtk
The Fisker debacle is one of the major reasons for their present situation.
I hope Johnson Controls fares better with the automotive side of things.
Proving that as a supplier of anything, Automotive Sucks.
Mr. Automotive Customer: “We Need it Now, We need it flawless, We want you to warranty it forever, and if you shut down our line, we’ll charge you $250,000 per hour”
Later that day/month/year…
Mr. Automotive Customer: “What do you mean you made 4% margin |( We are obviously due a 4% return and we want a 5% reduction in price for next year”
…
That would be so much funnier if it weren’t true. Ask me why I don’t even answer the phone for auto companies any more…
PPtk
Saw this video back when I was in my electric scooter modding days. I just remembered they buillt it with A123’s. It’s still kinda impressive.
Enjoy.
Yep, they had a welding machine that was welding a tab slightly out of place. But they had no way to track which cells were done on that machine (can you say STOOOPID? I knew ya’ could). A123 gobbled a $50+ million dollar loss. Modules were surplused to China where you can now buy them for sorta cheap… pot luck as to what you get quality wise, most people seem to be doing OK with them. Some experiences here: Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!! | Endless Sphere DIY EV Forum
Then there’s the Killacycle motorcycle. Does 0-60 in well under a second.
Texaspyro said……
What’s your take on the feasibility of transport with the current (or future) gen of tech? I recall the energy density compared to gas was off by such an order of magnitude that massive batteries will be a necessity to support expectations of US transportation design, and to further aggravate this superconducting is probably necessary for charging at the rate gas can be pumped to avoid explosive temperatures.
I really don’t think they care about winners for the public . . these are simply payoffs thinly clothed in BS.
Killing alternative energy in America serves to protect the wealth of those already there instead of allowing new wealth to be made.
Those old businesses you mentioned are already entrenched and efficient, generating fewer jobs at lower pay over time. A somewhat traditional example was the Bakken. At first it was generating lots of jobs and very high salaries, but jobs haven't been nearly as easy to find in the past year. Trucks that could turn away work left and right in the past are now sitting idle while waiting for work. Oil employers have been finding that as they have less work to offer, they can offer reduced wages too.
For a somewhat less traditional example, look at GE's freight locomotives. Emissions regulations forced them to change, to innovate, and in turn become more efficient. GE produced the most efficient locomotives in the world out of necessity, and they export locomotives around the world, even to countries with businesses that already make locomotives.
Alternative energy would be the same way. Instead of continuing to funnel money into big established energy companies, it would allow smaller businesses to fill in the many niches of a new field. Partly because it's less efficient, the money made in this industry would be spread among more people instead of mostly benefiting those at the top. This is particularly true with rooftop solar.
In any case, yes, I certainly am much more supportive of giving government support to jump start a new industry instead of giving even bigger breaks to established extremely profitable oil companies that certainly don't need the help.
I'm also in agreement with a few others in being disappointed that A123 products are so hard to acquire. Not only would it generate more sales, it keeps money in America and supports American cottage industry.
nope, the government trying to kick start a nascent industry.
No different to the $100m+ the DoE spent directly on fracking research and look where we are now - a huge industry in the US that’s exporting technology and equipment around the world. It’s easy to point out the losers from anything like this (and I’m sure there were plenty of fingers waiting for fracking to fail) and hold it up as example of government waste, but without that early funding whole industries would not exist.
Instead, countries that do use this strategy, of which China is a glaring example, rapidly corner entire markets. Then the US would be importing all the things it needs instead of making them itself, something everyone seems to think is a bad thing.
You should look at venture capital funds - they expect only 10% of start up companies to survive, but that 10% will grow so valuable as to cover the cost of the 90% AND make a profit for the fund.
Arguments about investment are a smoke screen, at best. If it were FOR The People, royalties would come back to the taxpayers instead of campaign contributors. And investments wouldn’t be made with political oversight. And certainly not to companies already spinning their way down the bowl.
I have A123 20AH and there nothing less than amazing. I wouldn’t recoemnd them
for an LED application. I used them a few times with high output brushless motors and
they delivered power as good or better that Li-polymer cells.
Note these cells will charge up to 4.4-4.5 volts and remain in spec…
but the Government isn’t an “investor” in the sense that you invest money into a project in the anticipation of a financial return, so judging it by those terms is naive. It provides start up funds/ loans/ tax breaks to industries in the aim of fostering those industries and creating jobs, especially where those nascent industries are unlikely to attract venture capital funding due to the long time horizons and/ or high risk of failure. These are aims that would satisfy both the main political parties objectives - fostering job growth and reducing reliance on imports. Unfortunately, both sides like to “pick and choose” the successes and failures for political purposes, which both helps no one and willfully ignores the facts for political gain.
Do you think it would be better to cede these markets to other countries? Do you not want US companies to be created in new markets? Would it make you happier to buy a car with a Chinese made battery, so that your political ideals are satisfied?
And as to the picking losers comment, I believe the company that is buying A123 also received federal funds and is doing quite nicely.
Sad to hear all these alternative fuel/energy companies going bankrupt.
it’s just a natural part of the business cycle. A new market > lots of new companies > some fail, some grow > market consolidates and matures > a few giants emerge > a new market those giants can’t move quickly into > lots of… and so on. Just think back to the tech boom in the late ‘90s and what we have now. In fact, the US’ bankruptcy laws are what allow this creative destruction to happen which is why so many of the top companies in the world started here and not in Europe where the law is a lot more rigid. It sucks to be one of the workers laid off when this happens, but chances are, without that environment, you wouldn’t have had that job in the first place or be able to get another one afterwards.
I think there is a little difference between investing a hundred million into a multi-multi-trillion dollar industry over thirty years and giving 250 million(a123 Systems) and a billion(Solyndra) to one company directly after an election.
Plus, I think there are degrees of government intervention. I am definitely on the side of limited government. I am not against all government involvement. I don’t believe the government can spur economic growth other than getting out of the way.
In the case of the fracking example that was brought up, 100 million over many years is such a small investment relatively speaking that claiming the government spurred the fracking industry is like saying Al Gore invented the internet.
I worked in the oil fields of Oklahoma in the late ’70s to early ’80s. Fracking seemed to me to be a common practice. How much of that is due to goverment subsidies I don’t know. I do know that it was that evil Haliburton that performed the fracking service.
I have a lot more confidence in the free market solving probems. Necessity is the mother of invention. Stimulus spending is the mother of waist, IMO. Especially if it is borrowed money.