I agree with you that kids need to be taught "how to swim, safely handle a gun and handle themselves outdoors" however I would like to point out there a much better ways to teach them to do that then joining a bigoted organization like the boy scouts. Everything you mentioned IMHO should be taught by the family or the red cross (lifegaurd).
Scaru, you are a libertarian, right? I mean, as one myself, I’m kind of surprised to hear you say that. I’m not advocating bigotry, but why should any private organization be forced to be all inclusive? If we started a Solarforce club, should anyone (other people, the government, etc.,) have the right to force us to allow members in that only have Maglites? Shouldn’t we be allowed to restart the heman woman haters club if we were so inclined? Sure, we wouldn’t have as much cake to eat, but it might be worth it (in theory, anyway. I would really miss the cake). Do you think the Sons of Anarchy would let us join if we had Vespas?
At the end of the day, I don’t want to poop in a coed bathroom. And that’s where all this ends.
I hear the womens restrooms are much nicer, if the quality of my shitting experience can be improved I am all for such a change.
Yes, I am a libertarian just like you. I agree that they should not be forced to nor do they have to. However, when it is a issue of human rights then I think it is the only thing a good person should do.
Just to clear things up I am talking about their rules regarding gay scoutmasters.
I think that the BSA should be allowed to make those rules, I just disagree with them. They phrase it as a "child protection issue" which it is not. It is that opinion that I find extremely offensive, they (including a friend of mine who is a eagle scout) think that a gay scout master is dangerous and might hurt the children.
And don't even get me started on the "leaders" the boyscouts create. :P Out of curiosity what is your opinion on the boyscouts?
I’m not so sure about that. The Cones were over at my brother and sister-in-law’s for dinner yesterday. Something I ate didn’t sit well and I had to make an “unscheduled landing’ in their 1/2 bath. The only things to read were Bon Appeite and Woman’s Day. No Cycle World, no SWAT, no Backpacker. Heck, not even a Reason.
If this is what it is like when a woman has total control over the facilities, you can have it!
As for scaru’s question about how I feel about the BSA, well…
I personally went through 60% of the program as a kid. I believe in the core philosophies of God, duty, community, self reliance, charity, country, skills, team work, etc. to be worth while. I was taught them at home as a youngster, they were reinforced in the Scouts, and I try to instill them in my sons. My older son was involved in the program until it was disbanded due to the lack of kids; I think I’ve mentioned before that I live in a very small town, so small in fact, that some years they don’t have enough kids to field a little league team.
Is Scouting the only way to teach those things? Clearly the answer is no. Is their unwillingness to allow gay scoutmasters unfair and irrational? Maybe, but that isn’t my call to make. Nor is it anyone else’s. Moreover, I don’t think it has anything to do with what the actually teach the kids. The BSA, far as I know, isn’t out advocating the banning of the gay lifestyle, or the hating of gays… they just don’t want gays in their organization. As is their right. Just like we all have the right to disagree.
What we don’t have is the right to force anyone to believe the way we do. For instance, the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t believe in birth control. Some people feel that is ridiculous. But no one is forced to be a member of the church or even live that way despite being a member.
The NBA apparently doesn’t want short, stocky, klutzy guys like me in their organization, either. So what? None of us have the right to demand people associate with us. The International Super Models Union, likewise, also won’t let me become a member. And trust me, not being with all those tall, hot models is really upsetting me. “It’s so unfair!” 
Should we all be tolerant of each other, absolutely. But, usually, the people calling for tolerance the loudest are the most intolerant. Personally, I’m not the kind of person who is upset when I can’t join the black student union or the women’s rotary club.
Scaru, for me it all boils down to this. (I know I’ve linked to this before, but until the whole planet can rap their heads around the concept as the “one true way”, I’ll keep spreading the word)
I’d write “+1” Cone but I can’t follow your link. I hope it leads to something simple like the Golden Rule but in any case for me the BSA was just a place to play and learn with other boys of a similar age. It certainly wasn’t “safe” but we were supervised. As with any large organization, the character of the local supervision is more of an example for the members than any fine print in the charter. I think we have more growing to do still. BSA is just one place to start.
Edit- I was able to follow the second link and can definitely +1 that.
I’m not a great swimmer and I almost drowned as a young boy about 13. But I do know how to swim. I got caught in some stong current from heavy rains that occured nite before while camping with my parents at the time on the following day swimming. Lucky for me my older neighbor boy that I invited with me swam out to get me and pull me back to safety. I don’t know for sure what would of happen, and I don’t want to know. I’m just glad that Kent was with me. He probably saved my life. I did learn one thing about this incident besides learning to respect swift rising water regardless if it is deep or not, and that was to never try and swim against the current, instead to swim with the current and at an angle to get back to the bank to safety.
So thanks for posting.
And God bless the family of the boy.
RIP
There was a time, not too long ago, when we Jews were not welcome in many 'clubs.'
The same goes for African-Americans.
Prejudice is born of fear and ignorance, and rationalizing it only helps to perpetuate the discrimination.
Rufusbduck, that link worked for me, so I’m not sure I can fix what’s wrong. You can always cut and paste the address if you are so inclined.
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philosophy.of.Liberty.swf
Cx, I agree 100% with “Prejudice is born of fear and ignorance, and rationalizing it only helps to perpetuate the discrimination.”
Your point about African-Americans and Jews being excluded is historically accurate. But even today, both of those groups have their own exclusive associations and organizations. Heck, the Torah is quite clear, Jewish charity is only for the Jews. Institutional racism? Maybe. Doesn’t bother me in the least. The part that bothers me is when people who claim to be prochoice don’t want me to be able to choose too. Even if I am misguided or narrow minded in the decision making process.
It all boils down to freedom of choice and association. As long as our government doesn’t discriminate, I don’t care who else does. If all the members of BLF lived in a single small town, I pretty sure some of you would “discriminate” against me by choosing not to be my friend. We all discriminate all the time. Road bikers don’t like MTBers. Harley guys don’t like to wave at the sport bike dudes. Some girls won’t date guys with hairy backs. I could go on ad infinitum.
So long as private parties are free to choose alternatives, I don’t see the problem. The BSA can not affect a gay person’s life in any meaningful way, and gay folks are still free to start there own scout like organization. Other than people’s feelings being hurt, I see no tangible harm. Moreover, the BSA does not teach scouts to discriminate against anyone. If anything, I think the curriculum teaches just the opposite. I think the things young men learn a Scouts is far better for them then what they pick up a peewee football. I mean, have you sen what goes on at a Little League game? Not exactly good role modeling going on there, IMHO.
And since you brought up African-Americans, I’ll add this. My paternal grandparents came to America in 1954 with 7 kids and ALL of the family’s belongings in a 4x6 trunk. No one spoke any English. No money to speak of. Virtually nothing at all. But never has a member of the Cone family claimed to be Dutch-Americans. We are Americans plain and simple. I think the fact that a majority of African-Americans use the hyphen illustrates the fact that many of them don’t want to be part of the larger group and are self-segregating. There is a little bit of discrimination in that, no?
BTW, This is usually where the OP or some other stickler for the rules would come in and say. “Ah, this has been derailed and I don’t think we should be going off topic.” I, however, as the OP, love the fact that conversations and friendly debates find their own natural path.
I agree with you that many of the core values of the boyscouts are very important, however when trying to teach children about duty, community, self reliance, charity, country, skills, and teamwork there are better ways to do it than focusing on religion and "god". As an atheist I would not have been allowed to join the boy scouts, despite the fact that I was very outdoorsy.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't boy scouts supposed to be leaders? IMO if they were leaders then they would be speaking out against the boy scouts and their policies regarding gay scoutmasters. While they don't have to with freedom of speech, if they did they would be preparing themselves to be real leaders. Is that not the point of the BSA?
So, scaru, you are asking them to be leaders for your point of view and not for their own? Why would you expect them to advocate for something they find abhorrent? Whether they are correct in their belief or not, they still ought to be able to hold that viewpoint, no?
As for “focusing on religion and ”god”, while there may be an underlying reliance on Judeo Christian values, God isn’t taught to scouts. It’s not Sunday school. Except for saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, I can’t ever recall hearing God mentioned.
But this is what surprises me about you, scaru, given our similar political/philosophical world view. I don’t give a rip what you think about God, but you seem to care that I and others believe. Your feels about the BSA seem, to me, anyway, to run counter to the quote in your signature. No offense, but it seems inconsistent to me.
I think by asking them to be leaders for human rights as a whole is perfectly in line with my signature. Maybe we have different ways of interpreting the quote but to me it means that one should stand up for everyone not just yourself and your beliefs.
As for religious beliefs of the scouts let me direct you to a quick quote.
"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."
I understand that the BSA relies on God as the foundation for the values it promotes, what I was try to say was that they don’t teach “religion”. But God is the foundation for western culture generally, so I’m not sure that that alone is a big deal. You may be an atheist, but you live under a constitution that was premised on God given rights.
Clearly, that was about Mormons, but the point is the same.
While both the BSA and the constitution were based upon "god given rights" one (BSA) is still focused on it while the other is distanced from it. Sure christianity is the majority in the US and in much of the world but it is separate from the US government, hence the first amendment.
Extra credit for using a South Park clip in a political discussion though. :P I have just been waiting for a chance to use this one.
Scaru, the 1st amendment only says that the government can’t make laws concerning religion, not that the government itself can’t believe. Look at our currency or the inside of the Supreme Court. Clearly the Government believes. I believe that the further we drift from those core values/principles the worse things become. For me, it doesn’t matter if you think those first, foundational principles come from God or somewhere else, just so long as they are there.
I again make reference to the video on Liberty I linked to in post #24.
Without understanding that, we are doomed.
Yes, the government can believe in god and to a certain extent they certainly do. I 100% agree about the importance of the core values, but I think it is better for people to come to realize those on their own and not through being told if they don't they will go to hell. As for that video on Liberty that you linked to, it is a great video and I have used it a number of times in my personal life.
“I think it is better for people to come to realize those on their own and not through being told if they don’t they will go to hell”. Sooner or later, we all find our way home.
I’m not aware that Scout Masters were telling kids gay people are going to hell. Seriously, that does not happen. You know that, right.
There is a fine line between friendly philosophical discussions and proselytizing to be sure. All people sometimes cross the line. That does not invalidate the message, however. Foy can be too much sometimes, but SF still makes great hosts (I don’t think Foy ever has gone too far in his exuberance, I’m just trying to give a non offensive example, so, Foy, please indulge and forgive me).
Strawman argument aside, it's still an exclusionary policy that does nothing to enhance the organization or children involved within. It only serves to divide further a marginalized group, as were the groups I mentioned previously.
I'm sure they have a no-diddling-kids policy as well...yet there are numerous accounts of such. No benefit, again, to the children involved.
BTW, I'm not sure why you would object to the term African-American. Would you prefer some of the anachronistic and racially-baiting terms that our society has used in the past that don't bear repeating here?
How about we just call them “Americans”.
Just ran across this story. How about this headline?
Eva Longoria to open women-only steakhouse in Las Vegas
Here is the full story. Actually, anyone can eat there, but if the headline was literal, would the discrimination bother you guys?