Closed Official Haikelite MT09R *UPDATE Now including TA's Pricing for Emitter Upgrades* Closed

Commercial Sellers' Spot BLF User Negotiated Deals
1841

All I can tell you is what I saw with my 70.2 CW light.

Stock I was getting ~14.5-15k lumens.

With the V1 prototype driver installed it was around ~16-17k lumens

With the 80cri 4000k LED’s it was around 23k lumens before “break in” and seems to of leveled off around ~21-22k lumens. These latest flip chip LED’s from Cree seem to have a break in period that many of us at the extreme end have noticed where output will drop after a few months of use and then level off.

The running theory right now is that the Vf is increasing slightly as we used to see in the past with old LED’s.

Needless to say with countless thermal test runs, and dozens of hours of testing the prototype drivers in this light the break in period was accelerated lol.

For example my L6 was making around 8500 lumens when I first built it last summer but is now making just under 8k lumens. The break in seems to be around a 10% drop in output before leveling off but these LED’s have not been out long enough to really get good data yet.

All of that was off-topic though. The same thing applies to the stock LED’s as well.

With replacement LED’s there should be a noticeable increase in lumens, exactly how much will vary per light and LED used. It is completely up to you, It is a pricey upgrade no doubt about it.

1842

I was curious to run a quick poll on here. Nothing has been decided, just business negations at this point. I am just looking for more data to help move things along.

I was talking to Dale last night about the drivers and told him my price for the complete designs (yes, naturally I planned to get paid for these), as tested by me with a silly amount of work all said and done (I have literally lived these drivers the last month to make sure they are reliable, just ask my family lol).

He says that they can get a driver design in China that is not open source for 33% less then my asking price. I am already asking them for less then half what this work would be worth in the USA.

My response was that this is a premium driver and has a premium price for the custom design and firmware tweaks to work with this monster light as I expect. Also the open source of the driver actually increases the value since it allows people to customize it to their needs.

I say that using a Real Texas Avenger driver increases the value of the light and the sales more then enough to offset the extra cost.

So I am curious, who out there purchased or would purchase this light because it has a Texas Avenger driver?

Would you pay more for a light with this real TA driver vs a china designed driver?

About how much extra would you pay for this light with the TA driver?

Or do you not care what driver is in it as long as it works?

Just trying to get some information to base negations on. If this driver would not add much value to the light I want to know that as well. I don’t want to sell it under false pretenses.

1843

Good question.

I personally am not into ramping or NarsilM, and I don’t have a single light with a TA driver. I like a fairly basic UI like that of a Thrunite. For me reliability is key. It doesn’t matter what the UI is if the driver is simply not reliable. That is my biggest gripe with Haikelite (and Imalent), and the TA driver oozes quality in every way. The TA driver was a very important reason for me to join this group buy. I also have no preference for an open or closed source UI.
I certainly would pay extra for a TA driver, knowing it’s a TA driver. In terms of price, I’d pay $20 extra. I also wouldn’t mind paying extra for a Chinese “Thrunite driver”, knowing it will be reliable as well. I just don’t want a generic bonky wonky driver.

1844

yeah and where they ended up with. problematic driver and sub-standard UI :person_facepalming:

1845

+1

1846

Terry, you do not have to apologize - you fought for and tried to protect your business and I understand this.

As already stated in our private conversation: I never thought you were responsible for all the mess HAIKELITE created - you are just the poor guy who has to deal with it.

So lets return to the GB (my blue XHP35 will leave the next days to Lexel) and see what will come.

By the way: I would strongly propose to divide that thread (and create some new ones):

- let’s keep the pure GB-thread with all the information for the GB - does everybody receive their flashlight, are there any problems and so on. Especially all of the reactions of HAIKELITE regarding the repair of the faulty ones should be part of this…

- then let’s start a new thread with all the information from Texas_Ace regarding the changes he can do for people who do not want to wait. Maybe also Lexel can join for the european customers who do not want to solder themselves…

- then maybe an update regarding the shipment of the charging units

Because when I take a look on the actual thread you have to read like a bookworm to be always up-to-date…

But as I said: just an idea…

PS: seeing your special forces backround made me understand why we think different - my roots are in the german version of your “Force Reconnaissance”, whos (contrary to FORECON) only purpose was analyzing and collecting information…

:wink:

1847

I personally love the ramping driver and programmable options on my Emisar lights. That UI is so intuitive, and seems to get everything just right, from coming on in moonlight mode or turbo, ramp memory, everything just seems “right”.
On a high dollar light, I would easily pay $25 for it to be factory installed…IF it were genuine.

1848

I love narsil and prefer ramping when ever I can get it. So yes, a TA driver is worth more to me than what you charged in this type of light.

1849

+20 more for a TA version

1850

The best single button flashlight UI I have used so far are the Emisar series. OMG they are so easy to use and work so well! That’s one of the reasons why I got excited about the MT09R in the first place. Also knowing its a Texas Ace driver makes it worth much more since we know it will be QUALITY. In terms of how much more I would pay, it depends on the type of light. If it was a mid power light, probably $20 more. But for something like the MT09R, I think even $50 more would be justified. Imagine if Haikelite used TA from the start, and also took his advice on P2 and M4 80CRI bin emitters, they could have advertised 25k+ lumens and it would be the brightest 4-cell flashlight in the world with the renowned TA driver and UI that everyone can trust and loves. Even the Acebeam X80 with 6500k CW emitters (retails $300) that advertises 25k lumens only measures at 21k-23k from what I’ve read. The UI on the X80 is AWFUL (requires cycling through the horrendous red, green, blue, uv modes each time), which is one of the reasons I didnt buy it.

I think the MT09R XHP70.2 if originally advertised with these specs could have sold many times more even if it cost $50 more, since it would be the current world record holder as the brightest 4-cell beer can light. Also the only high power flashlight in production with GOOD NW tint (and 80CRI option).

Basically, if Haikelite wan’ts to become a premium brand, having TA on their team would be the easiest way to achieve their goal.

1851

One of the reasons why I joined this GB was knowing that it’s was TA and driver involved. So I would pay a premium for it but not sure what is a reasonable mark up. But if $20 is what the drivers are selling for, I would pay it.

1852

me too, weird they can defend those chinese drivers because they are cheaper over TA… strange because of all issues if they were that good why not use em then and save us all lots of headaches?? Something dont add upp before the GB started we heard they wanna step up as premium brand , use quality drivers etc…. i find this hard to achieve if they reject good driver presented too them…
I think that TA dude is worth his weight in gold.

1853

+1

I do not enter this GB because I can not forget their behavior in the previous one organized by Haikelite HaikeLite MT03 & MT07 Group-buy Closed

1854

I’ll easily pay extra 15% for TA designed driver.

1855

>> He says that they can get a driver design in China that is not open source for 33% less then my asking price.
>> I am already asking them for less then half what this work would be worth in the USA.

Seriously?! After all the #$@ Haikelite is responsible for in this GB, after all the time you’ve spent trying to help bail them out of this mess, now they’re considering stiffing you in order to save what, $2 per $180 light?

In this newly self-declared era of Haikelite’s improved quality control and customer service, this trainwreck of a GB had destroyed any faith I’d had in the brand. The fact that Haikelite was working with you (TA), or at least the fact I thought they were working with you on designing/producing new driver had done much to restore my optimism.

I’m pissed. Pissed that I never got the light I was promised, that I’ve spent so much time following this thread, caring about it, and that in the end Haikelite is even considering screwing over the BLF member who is essentially saving their ass in this GB. If this happens I will certainly never entertain buying another Haikelite, but will probably be inclined to voice my opinion every time Haikelite offers anything in this forum, point people towards this thread, other thread’s revealing details of Haikelite’s failures.

Also, I imagine many people chose not to pay extra to TA directly for his driver but were waiting instead to get a TA designed driver for warranty from Haikelite. If Haikelite instead chooses to “get a driver design in China that is not open source for 33% less”, you will not be getting a TA designed driver, and given Haikelite’s record, it STILL likely won’t address all the problems properly. If I were in that camp I would
COMMENCE PAYPAL PROCEEDINGS IMMEDIATELY in order to get a REFUND.

Imagine, waiting maybe 4 months to receive new driver from china, likely having to spend your own $ for shipping if you need someone to install it for you, then waiting another month or so to receive light back only to find it still had issues because of crappy out-sourced driver? By then your 6 months of paypal protection will have been long expired. In fact, I imagine paypal protection will have expired by the time anyone receives a new driver from Haikelite, so it is a gamble either way. If it were a TA designed/tested driver then maybe their is hope that Haikelite will successfully arrange for its manufacture. At this point I think it would be incredibly foolish to trust Haikelite to oversee design and manufacture of driver when the consequence of failure is having no means to redress their failure (ie expired paypal buyer protection).

If they choose to go with non-TA driver, and you are still happy to have Haikelite product (despite their poking TA in the eye), why not wait for them to be produced, reviewed, see if they actually work? In other words, if Haikelite goes with non-TA driver, get refund now while you still can, purchase one later if they’re shown to work.

1856

Perhaps Texas Ace can ask Dale for clarification what Haikelite’s plans are with the MT09R. I have e-mailed Dale a couple of days ago, and he told me that the V2 driver for the MT09R is a TA driver with NarsilM.

1857

Thanks for the support but no need to go hanging Haikelite. I did not start this to in any way tarnish HL, Up to this point it has just been business negations. I will let ya’ll know if it goes sideways.

For the record, I left them with an offer on the table last night and they said they would discuss it. I have not heard back on it yet. While the offer is not what I was hoping for, in the interest of the greater good and everyone getting a working driver, and me not totally wasting my time, I would be happy with the outcome.

Part of the offer was sample lights for their future lights, so I could test them and hopefully help prevent future issues (and naturally get some nice lights for myself).

I simply wanted to make sure I was not mis-representing the situation that the TA driver would add tangible value to the light and get some data either way.

Lets stick to opinions on the value that the TA driver either does or does not add to the light for now.

1858

In other News I laid my mt09R on an envelope for just a moment earlier and, well this happened:

1859

>> Perhaps Texas Ace can ask Dale for clarification what Haikelite’s plans are with the MT09R. I have e-mailed Dale a couple of days
>> ago, and he told me that the V2 driver for the MT09R is a TA driver with NarsilM.

Umm, try re-reading TA’s post, Closed Official Haikelite MT09R *UPDATE Now including TA's Pricing for Emitter Upgrades* Closed - #1842 by Texas_Ace
It’s pretty clear. Dale says to TA that there is “a driver design in China that is not open source for 33% less then my [TA’s] asking price.”
And then TA is trying to explain to them the worth of his design, polling us for our opinion. Obviously Dale is at least considering going with the cheap option.

So, you can choose to believe Dale’s email to you as the final word, or TA’s recounting of his communication with Dale.

1860

>> Thanks for the support but no need to go hanging Haikelite. I did not start this to in any way tarnish HL

We’ve endured several significant unfulfilled promises from Haikelite, and I’m sure that for many people your work was the one thing that offered hope they might eventually have the light they were hoping for, a reason to hang in there with this GB. I know that it was not your intention to harm HL or derail this GB in any way, but from my perspective they are clearly hanging themselves by threatening to not use your driver.