Emisar 21700!!!

Photon_Master · February 3, 2021, 4:26pm

This is amazing. Thanks for sharing this info

adam7027 · February 3, 2021, 4:13pm

Sorry Photon Master, I don’t mean to bug you, but did you really have to quote the whole picture heavy comment just to say thanks to him? (Anyway, thanks to him for sharing his measurements as well.)

Photon_Master · February 3, 2021, 4:26pm

Oops thanks that was stupid. I fixed it

clientequator · February 3, 2021, 4:37pm

toobadorz:

Also I would like to share with you my runtime measurements with my K9.3. In most of the experiments, I intentionally off-calibrated the temperature sensor of the tested lights so that no thermal step-down could happen. But I did calibrate the temperature sensor correctly before conducting experiments for the purple curves (with temperature limit = 50°C) to see the stable brightness range under my room temperature condition (~22°C).

Don't take the lumen numbers seriously, they are simply rough estimations. I cannot estimate the lumen numbers for the deep-red/yellow emitters since I have no corresponding reference lights, so I only show the relative output here.

The efficiency of the linear driver is not quite impressive :(

The red curve (Turbo) cannot be regulated, meaning that the Vf of the emitter is simply too high.

It's interesting to see that the red curve (Turbo) performs noticeably worse than the orange curve (Step 7) here. The extra current doesn't give any visible increase in output, simply more heat. That's why the purple curve looks even better than the red curve in the first 2 mins, because it steps down and decreases the current.

The cell voltage is 4.186V after charging.

Wow this is a very detail tests, thank you toobadorz for making all the experiments and charts! I saw that you did same test with Fireflies E12R on here:

https://budgetlightforum.com/t/-/64022/349

From what I can see to compare, using same Samsung 50S battery:

Noctigon K9.3 with E21A 3500K D220 R9080

420 to 600 lumen for 2h32m (auto regulate)
190 lumen for 7h 30m (cooled)
Charger 2h 53m

Fireflies E12R with 219B 4500K D220 R9080

1500 lumen for 1h 08m
900-800 lumen for 2h 07m (auto regulate)
800 lumen for 2h 22m (cooled)
225 lumen for 7h 0m (cooled)
Charger 3h 01m

Efficiency

I do not know the efficiency different between 219B and E21A, but it look like the E12R driver is much more efficient. From 50C no cooling test for both (I think flashlight settle at thermal stability after a while), the K9.3 go down to 420 lumen first when it is hot, then as battery voltage drop, my guess is driver is more efficient and heat less, so the brightness goes to 600 lumen until it turns off at 2h32m. The E12R somehow can stabilize at 900 to 800 lumen, about 2x to 1.5x brighter, and last for 2h 07m, shorter than K9.3 but much brighter. If I assume current is propotional to lumen within small range, then K9.3 is 77520 lumen*min, and E12R = 107950 lumen*min, so E12R driver is almost 40% more efficient (assume led is similar efficiency)?! Maybe my maths is wrong?

Charging

First it look like K9.3 charge about 10m faster than E12, but I notice that while max charge current is higher on E12R, it starts with low charge current for first 27m, before going to 1.9A max. Compare to K9.3 which start at 1.4A at max at 1.7A. Why is the charger doing this? I made some research and I found this: https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/a-designer-guide-fast-lithium-ion-battery-charging. Maybe E12R is charging the battery at low current from 2.8V to 3.0V for battery health before fast charging. I think this means that it may be good for health of lithium battery, but if your battery is 2.8V and you want to charge fast, the first part will be slow.

adam7027 · February 3, 2021, 5:16pm

clientequator:

…

Efficiency

I do not know the efficiency different between 219B and E21A, but it look like the E12R driver is much more efficient. From 50C no cooling test for both (I think flashlight settle at thermal stability after a while), the K9.3 go down to 420 lumen first when it is hot, then as battery voltage drop, my guess is driver is more efficient and heat less, so the brightness goes to 600 lumen until it turns off at 2h32m. The E12R somehow can stabilize at 900 to 800 lumen, about 2x to 1.5x brighter, and last for 2h 07m, shorter than K9.3 but much brighter. If I assume current is propotional to lumen within small range, then K9.3 is 77520 lumen*min, and E12R = 107950 lumen*min, so E12R driver is almost 40% more efficient (assume led is similar efficiency)?! Maybe my maths is wrong? ...

As I recall, E21A is a fairly low Vf emitter, thus, if a linear driver is used (even PWM-less), Vbatt - Vf difference is fairly big, so even if E21A and 219B 9080 has similar efficiency, E21A shows better these differences in driver efficiency - showing the superiority of the buck driver used by FireFlies more spectacularly. With keeping these measurements in mind, K9.3 seems definitely overpriced for me, even it is a very complex and expensive design. I have big hopes for the FireFlies E07X. If I get those with SST-20 4000K and 2700K (or hopefully ~3500K), I will trade my two D4SV1.

clientequator · February 3, 2021, 5:25pm

You are correct! I made comparison using texas_ace chart:

https://budgetlightforum.com/t/-/50279

https://budgetlightforum.com/t/-/44574

Because lumen brightness is low (600lumen for K9.3 / 9 led and 900lumen for E12R/12), I use lowest value on the chart per led which add up to about the correct total brightness:

E21A is 2.63V at 150mA

219B is 2.72 at 150mA

so I multiply by 2.63/2.72 and I get 34.6% more efficient for buck driver. I think most likely this is very simple estimation and not accurate, but even if it is different by +-10%, the effcieincy for buck is clearly shown in this comparison. K9.3 with buck driver would be amazing!

toobadorz · February 3, 2021, 5:46pm

Thanks for your comparison, clientequator, that’s exactly what I would like to show. The efficiency of a buck driver is much better especially when a low Vf emitter is used and driven with low current.

My lumen numbers may be inaccurate, especially when it comes to a light with multiple emitters like this. I’m using a “lumen tube” for easier measurement, but its result is not that good for such kind of lights. I just calibrated my E12R results with maukka’s standard light (219B) and updated my E12R charts accordingly, and these results are now a bit lower (~7%) than earlier. Probably still inaccurate though

Lux-Perpetua · February 3, 2021, 5:54pm

Hats off and thank you so much toobadorz for this detailed analysis. I took the liberty to summarize your observations and link to this thread on „the other forum“. ;-) Good to see some actual efficiency comparison between linear and buck drivers. :THUMBS-UP:

toobadorz · February 3, 2021, 6:00pm

And about the chargers of E12R and K9.3.

I personally prefer the E12R charger, because it ends with a lower cut-off current, leaving the battery quite close to 4.20V. The trickle charge phase for taking care of a low voltage cell is also quite good. The total charging time actually varies and is related to the cell and its voltage before charging (I own 2 pcs of K9.3 and 6pcs of the new Fireflies lights, all tested), so simply regard both of them as ~3hrs charging time.

toobadorz · February 3, 2021, 6:01pm

You are welcome, Lux-Perpetua, feel free to do so

gregor · February 4, 2021, 12:40pm

After reading above comments.
Is E12R better flashlight then K9.3?

Is K9.3 no worth buying ? Is it to expnesive?

Thank you

Kind regards

Hikelite · February 4, 2021, 12:51pm

Since the K9.3 is a switching charger, you might want to see what it output not want it inputs, since it is essentially working as a buck charger from 5V input source, so that means input current will be lower than actual output current, would be useful some output measurements rather input measurements.

Also would have been nice to see the “guts” of the E12R not only of the K9.3 in such massive amount of detail.

toobadorz · February 4, 2021, 1:53pm

I believe both K9.3 and E12R utilize a buck charger, because they both consumed 4050mAh~4150mAh from the USB power source to charge a 4800~5000mAh cell.

Photon_Master · February 6, 2021, 11:03pm

I think I’m going to give one of my 9.3’s to my dad for Father’s Day and replace it. I dig the E21A 2700K on CH1 but I just can’t get into the CH2 W1 Yellow (Osram KY CSLNM1.FY)

Not sure what build I’ll go with though. My other two 9.3’s are

E21A 2000K + deep red
XP-L HI V2 5D 4.000K + deep red

Any ideas? (:

puglife2 · February 7, 2021, 1:36am

ch1 deep red ch2 green

Photon_Master · February 7, 2021, 2:47am

Great idea never thought of deep red for CH1. Do you mean Osram green for CH2?

Lux-Perpetua · February 7, 2021, 4:32am

Photon Master, on TLF a member posted some feedback and pictures of this configuration (CH1 SST20-DR, CH2 Osram green):

https://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/threads/noctigon-k9-3.78497/page-3#post-1109879

https://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/threads/noctigon-k9-3.78497/page-4#post-1110125

https://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/threads/noctigon-k9-3.78497/page-4#post-1111837

I‘m not sure if those pictures will only be shown as thumbnails when not logged in, though. For some pictures it takes to be logged in on TLF.

Helio2000K · February 7, 2021, 4:24pm

Been a few weeks since I visited this forum, looks like we both felt the same way on CH2 yellow. Mine ended up selling though a facebook group, hope the new owner is enjoying it more that I did.

I really enjoy the CH2 W1 green, I think it pairs really nicely with the crispness of the E21A 3500 or 4500 on CH1.

Rayoui · February 7, 2021, 4:52pm

I actually like the W1 yellow. It makes a nice ambience indoors in candle mode and it could be useful for minimizing glare in foggy conditions.

Photon_Master · February 7, 2021, 6:43pm

Ooo! I like that idea too. I only have 2000K and 2700K E21A’s. The 2000 is my favorite indoor tint but the 2700 is too warm for outside for me. So the 3500 you think?

I absolutely love the green Osram KR4 I just got