I’m MUCH more concerned with patent trolls vs someone taking a proven product and releasing their version of it. https://www.eff.org/issues/resources-patent-troll-victims
I will buy the original.
Well, you’re in the minority.
Why else did AliExpress grow that fast?
Because the majority goes for cheaper alternatives
Yes, the entire intellectual property system, uh, needs some work. It has issues. Even when attempting to do “copyleft” instead of copyright, ensuring that work is open and stays open, it still requires making copyrights and attempting to enforce them.
Copyrights in general last way too long, largely thanks to Disney and their efforts to retain full ownership of fairly ancient ideas like Mickey Mouse. Copyright should probably go back to a few decades maximum.
And then there’s the patent system, which really wasn’t designed for an internet age where things go obsolete just a few years after they’re invented… and where the patent office is massively overloaded with applications, most of which are trivial or obvious to those in the field but appear meaningful to everyone else. And the issue of parasitic patent trolls, buying up intellectual property for the sole purpose of suing people, without ever contributing anything of value to the world. These work directly against the innovation which patents were designed to protect.
So it’d be nice if we could redesign all this legal stuff to get it in line with the principles outlined in my previous post… basically protecting and rewarding those who are small and/or beneficial, while making things harder for those who are large and/or predatory.
Flashlight manufacturing has low quantities in comparation with other goods that were used as examples in comments. Regular batch seems to be 5000-10000pcs.
You need to separate spendings in categories. For low quantities, development can take great % (in each item self-cost), and copying design can make things worth. Can you reverse-engineer original driver hardware? Is it good idea that will save development time and improve quality? Not sure. Can you copy original UI? Same questions.
It looks strange but same things can be met in machining. Copying is never cost-effective way, unless this is manker vs utorch story (one factory, same people, same machines, same setups, different code for laser engraver :laughing: ). Please believe me, I have seen tons of ussr-made goods that were based on foreign prototypes. They were not able to be great, because copying was direct - thats why so many ussr military device parts have imperial sizes. Those who had to copy goods could not turn on their head and change sizes to more common. As result, parts were hard in manufacturing, and total shotage came further.
Just imagine that flashlight consists from 100-200 unique parts, and if youll try to copy all of them you wont get goods cheaper than origin. Some parts (rubber seals, optics, glass lenses) require great MOQ, you need to get same vendors as origin brand or base on parts that are available on market. Those parts that can be machined also take much time in setup, based on machine abilities. Second batch for brand owner will cost less that first batch for “designer”, and last one will met much more QC problems.
Summury:
Each manufacture should make decisions according to his own abilities.
Tesla model 3 have 4416 21700 cells inside. Dont you wont to copy one in your garage?
No.
Because local rules are killing local markets, but governments have great inertia and not able to limit international net-sellers fast.
If you look at goods reviews, you can see that aliexpress is very popular in ex-soviet countries, south america, small EU coutries. But they have low sellings in countries where full amazon services are available.
There’s a ton of apple and samsung clones, I’m not in the slightest tempted to purchase one. The quality and support just doesn’t compare. The other thing these companies do is make sure they stay ahead of the competition and don’t get complacent. Interestingly, there’s some popular manufacturers producing 18 led lights. Who copied who? Will it drive to produce bigger and better? Will these companies take a hit from their competitors or will the presence of copy cats draw attention and bring in more purchases? All I’ve seen from a lot of these designs getting “copied” is that a small tweak leads to more sales. If you tweak first(successfully), you win.
I will go the original since their effort in making one.When the original maker is making a good quality product,i like to support them for them to continue innovate and producing quality service.
I will not go for original when they price is way too expensive,just for a sake of a brand name(trend or some fashion) or something.
If it is cheaper alternatives,good for market,good for consumer.It will also forces original prices to drop.Its a win win for me.
That's a lot of comments. It's interesting to see so many people looking at it from different angles.
I was looking at it from a totally different perspective. Not from the big boy to the smaller copy cats, but the other way around. I was thinking about a smaller flashlight maker (think like Sinner, Reylight) who might have come up with a great design, and a bigger player just copies the flashlight without giving credit.
Would that change people's stand on copying designs?
Like I said earlier, it is difficult to “secure IP for design patents” in all cases:
“Citing precedent of this court, the district court stated that the plaintiff in a design patent case must prove both (1) that the accused device is “substantially similar” to the claimed design under what is referred to as the “ordinary observer” test, and (2) that the accused device contains “substantially the same points of novelty that distinguished the patented design from the prior art.”
source:
(Note to international users of this web forum: The link goes to a PDF document on a US government website/court/server)
IMO, for the layman all generic flashlights look similar, the same, or the definition of “substantially different” is tricky for (most) flashlights.
I don’t think it is “right” to copy any type of work, from anyone about anything. Because that is how I learned it when I have done academic research work, my thesis and earned my degree. IMO, it is very easy to come up with a “similar design” that is not a “copy”, especially for a product like a flashlight.
I think that aligns with what TK was saying about responsibility. The small company should be protected, but it would be much better if the community supported said small company by show of solidarity. This reminds me of a sheath maker on another forum. I collaborated a design with him and he asked if he could use it for other customers. Well, it wasn’t long before a number of copy cats came out with their version of our design. As it turns out, this sheath maker didn’t really have to worry about it because the forum provided so much work for him he had a one year waiting list. I’m sure for a company trying to grow it could have become ugly like the whole benchmade/spyderco hole design, where the public fight just draws negative attention. I don’t think there is much one can do but continue producing high quality goods and hope the consumer responds.
WTH ???
toy keepers comment ...>> Adults have more rights than children.<<...I'm hoping she means children should sit at the kids table during thanksgiving dinner ,Stop kicking the back of the drivers seat ..or stop talking when at the ballet .
As in the other post.
People should accept that there are differing “financial” markets in the world.
on ALL items. from a pr of socks to an aeroplane.
Accept it.
The top design/Quality ones have Their financial market.
The Ganzo. SRM. Y’Start, etc. have their level of “copy” purchasers.
and the real cheap nasty copy’s have their followers too.
Primarily. Size of back pocket.
We buy at whatever level we set out hobby finance levels at. Me $10 pw. Flat
No more. (Mostly).
The top ones HAVE their clients. That will never change.
SO why the problems. They can’t DO anything about it.
She probably means that children don’t have the same rights as adults, as in… they can’t vote, set their own rules or decide in the same way as adults. They are largely not held liable for their actions either (up to a certain age) in most Western societies.
I'm almost certain that's what she was saying. Children need more authority structure above them until they mature enough to develop the discipline needed for self-governance. Even though they technically have the same basic human rights that adults have, they can't be allowed to exercise many of those rights, for their own good and the good of society.
As a relevant example, a very high-powered flashlight shall not be made available to kids/children up to a certain age. It would be way too dangerous for them and the buildings they play in. Sadly, most flashlights do not come with these warnings at all.
Interesting conversation.
A lot of deviation on the original intent, I presume. But of course stealing is stealing, whatever color you paint it. Intent can be a difficult thing to prove, both of the copier and the original designer.
A guy works hard to come up with something that will sell, to feed his family and keep a roof over their head. He hits the proverbial nail on the head and begins to see great success. Great enough to inspire the copy people. So the real question is, do the cheap copies prevent sales of his original design? Some argue that the people that buy the clones would never buy the original overpriced item anyway, so what does it hurt? It hurts the family of the guy selling his original idea. It hurts the people he employs, if he can’t keep his business open. If those that can’t afford it don’t have to save up to get one, he loses that sale. If thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of the clones are sold, that is very potentially food NOT put on his table. Arguably, food was put on other’s tables, off his design. The entire argument is easily debated when you stand outside it. When it’s happening to you it’s crystal clear. And frustrating. Infuriating even. I know people this has happened to. The clones even copy their packaging, the product carries their signature logo, the copy is right down to the exact screw and shape and colors on the box.
Wrong is wrong.
So, when patent law is going after the criminal, do they also go after the buyers of the fake product? They should, because it’s those buyers that make it possible in the first place.
I myself do firmly believe in black and white, the rules. But I also know there are a lot of shades of grey in this world. I choose not to be in the grey, other’s do not. I can’t answer for what other’s do, but I will answer for what I do so I police myself and hope others do the same. And in doing so, there should be no support for the thief to copy the designs and try to profit off other’s hard work.
I assisted a large maker here on multiple occasions, on BLF ideas and designs. Like some others, I put in a LOT of time and effort so the BLF product would sell well. I created some builds of my own on some of these designs. I even sent a build of my own to China, twice. At my expense. My idea and hard work was, of course, copied and sold as another product. I fully expected it to be. But they did it poorly and caused a possibly dangerous situation. I was left completely out of the loop, again… of course… not even seeing the product until it was on sale to the public. So I made my own design from Titanium and Copper and I carry it on my belt to this day, every day. And I don’t buy lights from that company. I never sent the original to them with hopes of making money for myself, I knew perfectly well what would happen and so was not surprised.
And the world kept spinning around and around as usual. As far as I know, nobody has fallen off to date…
I think that sums it up nicely. Most people are buyers only. Most people say stealing designs is good for society. But when that same person invests in creating something themselves, their perspective changes. Suddenly food is taken off their table.
Good stuff guys. hmmm. definitely enough food for thought tonight.
disclaimer: I’m just some noob looking to buy a flashlight… however…
If I actually ‘knew’ what I was buying was a knock off, I would never purchase it– ever… but that’s just me… I’ve made my living for decades from my intellectual property – so my personal perspective may be different… I try to walk the walk…
I certainly wouldn’t buy a knockoff version of “THE” 