Clarifying to mean when used with common 7135 linear drivers not the 14500 battery itself wasting ‘excess’ energy on lower modes so you’re absolutely right to call that out. My bad. I guess you could call them ‘bad drivers’ from an NiMh perspective? But you’re way more expert than me on this aspect so I’ll defer to you to correct any further technical inaccuracies.
As to the overall whys of desiring more driver options for single NiMh we’ll that’s a personal preference for various reasons. Some of them practical, some of them just plain EDC related. Boost drivers as you’ve oft said are inherently inefficient. However some of them (too few) are less inefficient than many others.
Anyway what Zebra did with the SC5w driver is the main premise as it relates to NiMh. That they basically dedicated it to 1.2v was a marketing/performance decision that IMO shows the true potential of the Eneloop. More affordable options would be welcome because at the end of the day there are A LOT of Eneloops being sold but very few dedicated single cell high output lights that support them.
I think notwhackjob is confusing the 14500’s implementation in many lights with what the 14500 is actually capable of.
For instance, many lights that use a 14500 don’t use a very good driver. It’s either a linear regular (which wastes “extra voltage” as heat), or a FET driver that drives the LED with a very inefficient forward voltage and uses PWM to provide lower modes. In contrast, any light that uses a 1.2v battery has to use a boost driver, which is generally more efficient than a linear or FET driver.
That has nothing to do with what a 14500 can do if used properly. With a good buck/boost driver design, a light that uses a 14500 will be very efficient, and very likely capable of higher sustained output than a light using an Eneloop. I think the Zebralight SC52 illustrates this as I mentioned in my prior post.
nottawhackjob, thanks for the clarification. It makes sense now what you were getting at. Sorry for pestering you.
Agreed.
I’ve got a few Utorch UT01 lights that perform well on Eneloops, but I’m sure they’re not as optimized as the Zebralights. Alas, for $10 a pop, I’ll take them as is.
“I think isawhackjob is confusing the 14500’s implementation in many lights with what the 14500 is actually capable of.”
Wasn’t confused it was just an inaccurate blanket late nite comment that pinged the battery instead of the driver. Pete is obviously a serious pro here and I appreciate his accuracy and technical knowledge as I do your’s in many cases especially as it relates to real life applications. Good insights on your part.
But hey let’s not get too sneaky mean personal ok? I don’t appreciate calling me a whack job. :disguised_face: I don’t think you would like it if I disagree with something you said and snuck in……WalkIntoMyBSLight, right?
The problem isn’t actually R&D. The technology already exists, but the companies who have it aren’t bothered about putting it in 14500s. They focus on 18650s and they did the R&D to improve their 18650s. The companies who care more about 14500s and other niche cell sizes don’t have the technology.
Yeah, I really haven’t seen much of an improvement in 14500 cells in years. Whereas, 18650’s seem to be getting better every year (capacity and current). However, I think we may be reaching the top with 18650’s soon, especially if 20700 or 21700 become the standard for electric cars.
As for 14500, I just don’t think they’re going to get any improvement. I see them used in flashlights, garden lights, and some power packs for smallish electronics (like cameras), but that’s not a big enough market to make a big R&D investment in them worthwhile. Lipo packs seem to be the way the market is going for small electronics.
At your PM request, because you were offended I joked about your notawhackjob name, I replaced “is” with “not”.
But, seriously, why would you pick such a name (and frankly act a bit unsettled in your posts), if you don’t want people to make the obvious leap about your pseudo? I’m really not sure if you’re pulling my leg about being offended, or if you really are. Oh well, I guess it doesn’t matter. My intent was not to offend you, only make an obvious joke because you were being difficult in this thread.
I think we’re cool right from the PM I just sent ya? :sunglasses:
Ok. Maybe not. And btw thanks for the extra rectal jabs! Now it’s really obvious you were only joking!
Gotta love it! It’s alright man. I know I give that impression but I do actually mean well; being a bit controversial to liven things up and maybe get good informative (to some) back and forths on those outlier subjects. Sure is easy to be ‘difficult’ when ya don’t agree with everyone that’s for sure.
I prolly should’ve used a safer handle like lumenluver or even better 1234. Good obvious point!
I glanced through this thread but here is my take
Lithium ion holds more energy per weight/volume
They come in higher capacities and more sizes then NiMH
NiMH is better in almost every other way.
You can store them fully charged without losing capacity
They hold their charge well (at the cell level li ion is ok but in a product the electronics are always phantom draining it)
They last more cycles.
Temperatures don’t bother them as much
In a pinch you can use alkaleaks to replace them
They have no explosion risk
Chargers are easier to get chinese chargers are luck of the draw in my experience)
They will still have virtually all their capacity years from now
And so on.
I would like to see more 4AA lights and hosts, but lithium ion is more sexy and has essentially cornered the market.
Agreed. Duracell and Energizer probably spend millions advertising disposable batteries. I know both companies make NiMh cells, I see them at WalMart and what not. I have never used them so I can’t attest to their quality. I imagine if the quality is there and everyone stopped using Alky’s and went to NiMh, they would lose many many millions. No use in making a product that makes you less wealthy. You know the same reason we can never seem to cure any ailments or diseases, no money in the cures, only money in the treatments.
I have successfully got most of my family and friends to invest in NiMh for all their normal battery needs. Remotes, kids toys, clocks, everything. Most things now days seem to require back up batteries for some reason. Quite some time ago I was looking for a alternative to Eneloop for the family. Something cheaper but would still work well with their needs. Found a set of 10 2500mah EBL AA NiMh for like 11 bucks or so. I ordered some and put them to work around my house. Great batteries. Work just fine in just about anything I put them in. The family started buying them up off Ebay and they haven’t bought AA’s or AAA’s in a very long time now. I use them in some of my AA and AAA lights and they perform just as good as any other cell I have tried. The Amazon brand of NiMh seem to be pretty decent as well and go on sale quite often.
You won’t find a Energizer or Duracell in my house.
I’ve read through this thread as i sure can learn some things about rechargeable batteries.
However, my understanding is Ni-MH and Li-ion cells pretty much have the same energy density per volume. If you factor nominal voltage times capacity you get about the same numbers.
What’s interesting with Li-Ion is they provide a higher more convenient voltage and can deliver more amps depending on chemistry?
As for decent cheaper alternatives to Eneloops i use BPI 2400mAh AA Ni-MH which have been tested and reported ‘fine’… I’d say quite good, especially for the price. I have tons of them i bought from FT over the years. Mainly in use in garden lights and AA lights. Nothing to complain about so far. https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/BPI%20AA%202400mAh%20(White-orange)%20UK.html
That may be true, even the wikipedia article says they can provide comparable energy densities.
However lithium ion is what everyone is using for high power applications, NiMH was patent encumbered till recently (wikipedia also has an article on this) so the technology was leapfrogged, large capacity NiMH was never developed and little research is being done on NiMH chemistry today which means it will never become a big player, and not because it does not have potential.
I typically use Eneloop, just wait till they go on sale, or Ikea brand Ladda batteries which are cost competitive and have decent enough performance.
Actually, the best lithium ion cells have upto 250Wh/kg, while the best NiMH cells have up to 125Wh/kg.
The problem is that above capacities of 2500mAh in the form of AA NiMH cells, the cells’ self discharge rates go tremendously.
We do have 2700mAh cells(Powerex) which are genuine capacity, but drain completely in 3 months.
Once upon a time, we even had 3000mAh AA NiMH cells! The problem?
They self discharged in 2 weeks.
While I do agree almost every point about Eneloops, the one thing that they can’t beat lithium ion at is energy density and power density, along with cost, and with different types of lithium ion chemistry other than 3.6V ones, better cycle life, like with LTO and LiFePO4.
In batteries like life things are a compromise, todays lithium ion could have more capacity but have to balance cycles, ignition resistance, discharge rate and other factors as well. Maybe even self discharge. That said i am happy with Eneloops, i just wish more flashlight hosts were available for 4AA in series
Yesterday’s lithium ion batteries were built in to consumer electronics that would typically be replaced in 2-5 years. Today’s lithium ion batteries are being built into cars that will last 10-20 years, and stationary energy storage that probably have 20-30y depreciation cycles. Keep up, man!
Lithium ion batteries beat NiMH on volumetric energy density, but don’t forget energy/gram, too. Lithium is the lightest metal. Nickle isn’t Uranium, but it more than 10x as dense as lithium.
