I'd love a pack of batteries and one of the faster of the two chargers, just tell me when to send the money! :)
I am interested in buying a pack of batteries and a charger.
well if i give you approximate weight and size, could you calculate shipping? i can always buy em per order lol
i grabbed what was left of the fast chargers (a whole 2 lol) and it still takes a few hours to charge
they have a slew of the "quick" chargers. (white ones are "quick" black ones are "fast")
not sure if theres a real diff.
Assuming they don't just make up the details on the pack, Match said the "White = 2hr, Black = 3-4hr" so "quick" is faster than "fast".
"well if i give you approximate weight and size, could you calculate shipping?"
Yup :)
The USPS website is nice and easy to use, sent by "First-Class Mail International Package" as long as it's less than "Max. length 24", max length, height and depth (thickness) combined 36"" then the size isn't important.
Here are some numbers. The EastwardYJ J09 figure is notable. I think they really mean it about the 1.5V maximum. Just as well I dropped the meter leads on noticing the current!
| Light | Battery |
| Ultrafire C3 Q5 | 2x Eneloop |
| Ultrafire C3 Q5 | 2x NiZn |
| Ultrafire C3 Q5 | 1x 14500 |
| Tank007 E07 | Eneloop |
| Tank007 E07 | NiZn |
| Romisen R5-A3 | Eneloop |
| Romisen R5-A3 | NiZn |
| Romisen R5-A3 | 14500 |
| Yezl S5 | Eneloop |
| Yezl S5 | NiZn |
| Yezl S5 | 14500 |
| Ultrafire C3 SS | Eneloop |
| Ultrafire C3 SS | NiZn |
| Ultrafire C3 SS | 14500 |
| Ultrafire U-20 | Eneloop |
| Ultrafire U-20 | NiZn |
| Ultrafire U-20 | 14500 |
| Ultrafire C3 R5 | Eneloop |
| Ultrafire C3 R5 | NiZn |
| Ultrafire C3 R5 | 14500 |
| EastwardYJ J09 | Li Primary |
| EastwardYJ J09 | Eneloop |
| EastwardYJ J09 | NiZn |
+1
What the crazy blinking hell happened to the Eastward with NIZNs? I mean, everything else is showing like a 20% output increase but that's just nuts.
It was well on the way to burning out a boost circuit intended for a maximum voltage of 1.5 (Probably less as it puts a load of over an amp on the cell). I suspect neither the driver nor the LED would have coped with more than a second or two of this sort of treatment. I'd recommend not trying that on this light - there seems to be no lasting harm done to what is a nice little light - but a few seconds more would probably have been fatal.
hmmm i think a combined package would be less than that.
heres my problem tho, the SMALL priority rate box to UK from here is 14 dollars. thats only an 8"x5"x1-5/8" box
i dont see that being a cost effective means of shipping.... but after seeing what these go for on ebay, i can see how u guys would be willing to pay that price for them. they are going up in price on ebay. i payed 15 for mine, seems you cant buy em at that nemore. guess im stocking up at big lots and selling them there tooo lol
First post here. Been lurking and enjoying it here. Nice people. A haven from the abusive moderator[s] of CPF. Most will have an idea of what I'm talking about. Thanks for the nice forum. Smaller, more personal feeling here. And definitely more friendly.
Note about how I post: I don't post much, but when I do, I have something to say, and usually include a lot of information in detailed (read: long) form. If you get overwhelmed or annoyed at that, please just don't read my post, instead of complaining about it. Sometimes I include more information than the typical poster for archive and reference purposes. I use bold text to help people skim my posts. Now that we're clear on that...
A thank-you to the OP. I normally stop buy Big Lots semi-regularly to see the latest, but hadn't in awhile. Coincidentally, I'd been shopping on Amazon for Powergenix batteries, but couldn't find anything to push me over the $25 Super Saver Shipping minimum... which in retrospect was lucky! Same package on Amazon was 14 USD w/free Super Saver (now actually 13$). Which is WAY down from the around-$30 the package used to go for.
Verified my big lots had plenty of 3 Powergenix items... read on for the surprise, and maybe why they're on such a steep sale.
- Powergenix Charger (White) with 4 x AA batteries $8, ZR-PGX1HRAA-4B (Only English writing on packaging)
- Powergenix "Quick" (Black) with 4 x AA batteries $8 ZR-PGX5HRAAFR-4B (English and French writing on packaging)
- Powergenix AA batteries, 4-pack $5
In lieu of buying a charger bundle with a separate 4-pack for $13, I opted to get both the White and Black charger combos for $16 total (+ tax), to check out the differences. I'm unusual in that i DISLIKE 'fast' chargers... so sue me; I like slow charging and keeping my batteries cool. You can go into sophistry about C rates and terminations, but IMO hot batteries is a bad thing, so me likes the slow (cool) chargers of the smart variety. However buy as you please, and use this information to make sure you get what you'd prefer.
I think I figured out why they're on sale.
The "Quick" (black) charger is apparently the "slow" charger. And the "slow" (white) charger is apparently the "quick" charger, even marketed in alternate packaging as a "1 hour" charger (which is as much of a lie as saying the Black one is "Fast"). The kit part number proves this, yet... nowhere on my packaging does it say "1 hour", although the packaging says it's a "Quick" charger (while the black one's packaging and charger itself is labeled "Fast"). This gets confusing "quick"ly.
This is Amazon's page for the equivalent White charger product with matching kit name, but markets it as a 1 Hour charger. Note in Amazon's photos of the charger, nowhere does it say "1 Hour" or even "Quick" on it. Mine looks exactly the same, but the wrapping/packaging does not claim 1 hour charging.
http://www.amazon.com/PowerGenix-ZR-PGX1HRAA-4B-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B0029NZVZ0/
This is Amazon's page for the Black "3-5 hour Fast charger" (lol), non-French version:
http://www.amazon.com/PowerGenix-ZR-PGX5HRAA-4B-3-5-Hour-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B002NJUJ1G/
I noticed the disparity in claims of "Fast" vs 'normal' (or Quick?) charger in the store, and was confused.
From the box:
Fast (Black) charger: "Charges in 3-5 hours" [I assume 3 hours for 2 batteries, and 5 hours for 4? But they do not say].
'Normal' (White) charger: "Charges 2 AA in 1.5 hours, and 4 AA in 4 hours" [huh?]. Upon further reading, it seems that PowerGenix may consider the batteries "charged" when they not actually fully charged. According to a review on Amazon IIRC, the charger may trickle charge for a few hours to top capacity.
Obviously, the white (supposedly non-fast) charger has its act together in being more specific with specs on the packaging.
Opened them both up, and these are the specs listed on the chargers themselves:
Supposedly 'Fast' (Black) (actually slow) charger, charger Model F100027-00:
AA 3.2V x 2 = 300mA (what is the ASCII symbol for 'more or less than'?)
AAA 3.2v x 1 = 100mA
Note above: "3.2V x 2" assumedly means 4 AA's being charged at once. Continues the vague and bizarre communication trend on the "Black" model.
Supposedly non-fast (White) charger (A.K.A. the 1-hour charger, depending on where you buy it), charger Model F100011-14:
AA 1.6v x 2 = 1500mA
AA 1.6v x4 = 750mA
AAA 1.6v x 2 = 700mA
And, just to be clear on the AAA charging specs above, Powergenix does not yet make a AAA NiZn battery (overdue as of December 2010, IIRC).
Both chargers have the same physical/exterior design, but the electronics however are very different. Even the LED charge light functions may be different. The black "Quick" [actually slower] charger has 2 red LED's, and the white [normal but really quicker] charger has a Red and a Green LED. The white one feels heavier, and has a white glossy plastic of better quality feel. The black charger is of matte plastic. The white charger can charger 1, 2, 3, or 4 AA batteries at a time. The black one can only charge 2 or 4 AA's at a time.
I hooked up my Kill-A-Watt and took some readings.
White charger:
1 x AA = 3.5W on Slot 1 (varied between 3.4 and 3.6 watts)
1 x AA = 3.7W on Slots 2, 3, or 4 (3.4 - 3.9 watts)
2 x AA = 7.4W (7.3 - 7.5W)
3 x AA = 7.4W (7.2 - 7.8W)
4 x AA = 7.4W (similar range variance)
Note 1: values varied or jumped around more on this charger. The black one was quite steady. Not sure what this says re: differences on how the 2 work.
Note 2: The values I'm giving are from draw at the power outlet. I don't really know how to measure actual charge current with a multimeter, at least not with just 2 hands and 2 batteries. I assume I would get the charge voltage and then measure the current, then multiply the 2, but not sure how to physically do that, at least on multiple batteries (don't know if they charge in series or what).
Note 3: Not sure why there is a higher charge current for single cells on slot 1 vs the other ones (see immediately below).
Note 4: Batteries from one pack take more current than batteries from the other kit within the same charger. For instance, above the 7.4W figure was (I think) for the batteries which came with the white charger, while the other batteries only take 7.0 Watts. This happens on both chargers, for both sets of batteries. On my black charger, two AA's charging from set "A" (white pack?) takes 2.4W, while two from set "B" takes 2.2W. Needless to say, when I discovered this, I immediately took a marker and labeled Kit 1's batteries "A1" through "A4" and the other "B1" through "B4". I don't want to mix those up. Anyone have ideas on this? My guess this variance is not by design.
Note 5: On my Kill-A-Watt meter, [I assume] Volt Amps ("VA") varies greatly from "Watts". On my meter, 3.5 Watts claims 10 Volt Amps ("VA"), and 7.4 Watts equals 15 VA. I thought Watts equals Volts x Amps? Is this having to do with Power Factor? Please explain.
Black (supposedly "Fast" [not]) charger:
2 x AA = 2.5W set "A", 2.2W set "B"
4 x AA = 4.2W set "A", 3.7W set "B"
Note: I believe set "A" came with my white charger, and set "B" came with my black one. But I am not 100% sure. I believe this because I think I first tested each charger with its own batteries, and made measurements before forgetting which pile went with which charger. I don't know which set is more desirable, but I suppose the one which takes the greater current is better. I've heard bad things about the quality control from PowerGenix's one Chinese manufacturer. PowerGenix is based in San Diego, CA. NiZn technology has been around a very long time, but they have not been reliable enough for commercial use. PowerGenix says it made strides in that area, but reports are that the batteries still take far fewer discharge cycles than quality Low Self Discharge batteries like Eneloops.
As you can see, the black "Fast" charger is clearly the slower of the 2, even just by comparing packaging notes. I think this is a labeling screwup by PowerGenix's Chinese manufacturer? This may be why they've liquidated both these models? Or perhaps updating their battery construction, as another poster suggested, but that still wouldn't explain why the "Fast" charger is slower than the 'normal' charger.
The white charger is clearer about its own specs on the packaging, though overall it still seems to have an identity crisis. The white one, in addition to being more powerful (which usually means more expensive), can charge even and odd-numbered cells, including single cells, whereas the black one is restricted to 2 or 4. It's surprising that the same amount is charged for either kit (at least at my store). Most people will desire the white one, and it seems to sell better on Amazon despite the higher price (more reviews, anyway). I don't trust the robustness of NiZn batteries, and until hard testing results come in, I'll stick with gentler/slower charging, even if it means charging in pairs. Having both chargers, I can always change my mind.
@firemcd: when you say "8 bucks for an 8-pack [with charger]", I can't make out your picture's prices... how much did you pay for each item?? You bought yours 3 days after I bought mine, and my store charged 8 bucks for either kit and 5 for the batteries alone.
Store note: in my store, the white and black charger kits were separated. The black ones were hanging on the battery display near the checkout line, and the white ones were in one of the 'tools' aisles which had more electronic hardware stuff. I had to ask to find them, and although the first worker was a bit clueless, another heard him and showed me both locations. He also said they sold a 2-pack with 2-slot charger kit, but he couldn't find them and I didn't care. Your store may be different. I've noticed that some Big Lots are 'better' than others in general, in terms of merchandise and layout.
In the end, I think I'll keep one charger and 6 batteries for myself, and give 2 batteries and the other charger to a friend who has 4 eneloops for her (2 x AA) digicam, but could use a boost on the 1 x AA LED flashlight I got her (she's not ready for li-ion so this is a good compromise). If the batteries prove durable enough, I'll be happy with them. I've always been annoyed at the low voltage of hydride rechargeables. Hopefully this will help with cheap LED flashlights and other voltage-loving electronics.
I'm very glad to be witnessing the end of toxic waste Cadmium-based batteries, even if it means a bumpy road with NiZn. PowerGenix hopes it'll universally replace NiCd as the standard chemistry for crapola waste-of-money rechargeable tools from drills to electric toothbrushes. My assumption is they will at some point license the technology to this end. If I were them, I would've jumped straight to licensing and skipped over manufacturing myself. I know they're targeting electric cars too, but considering the limited charge cycles, it seems unlikely unless they've further developed the technology.
Some additional notes.
My 8 batteries from the 2 different kits came at a charge of 1.6x to 1.7x volts. Most were around 1.70. To me that implies these things are pretty freshly-made, not long-unsold overstock.
The cell positions on both chargers is weird. Charging dual cells requires either "2 in the middle" or "2 on the outside". Not "slots 1 & 2" or "slots 3 & 4". Some people have nearly returned them thinking the charger was defective. Even the white charger which can charge 3 cells, requires them to be in a configuration where a slot is skipped--according to the instruction sheet, anyway.
Both chargers are "travel" chargers in the sense that the 2 AC power prongs fold down for storage.
Thanks for the extensive comparison of the two chargers. I have held off on Powergenix until other people try them out. So far I haven't seen anything that makes me want to buy in, plus I have plenty of Eneloops and lithium ions already. I bought into the rechargeable alkalines that Rayovac made for a while and regretted it, plus had a few missteps on NiMH batteries and chargers. I feel guilty about buying chargers and then throwing them out because they are junk. The one application I've seen that seems ideal for these is for digital cameras, but I don't notice my camera taking that long to recover on Eneloops, and it takes a while to get a low battery message.
Welcome to the forums!
Hi there brjones, thanks very much for your insightful post! A warm welcome here to BLF, we're glad you enjoy it.
again prices at big lots:
$8 for EITHER charger
$8 for 8 pack AA
$5 for 4 pack AA
so far these batteries have performed well. but i havent received my hobby king charger/discharger yet to figure out discharge rates andd capacities.
apparently hong kong post isnt working for ANY of my packages from any vendor... something is amiss
if UK guys are interested, you have loads of people who can ship these out to u. take your pick.
talk about saving it all up and letting it all go at once
Hello and welcome
PS i did read a few of your posts over at cpf and remember a few objections to the length of them
i did not mind please keep the info coming
I did another run time test on my PowerGenix and have concluded about a 10 to 12 minute difference in run time compared to my 2300mah New Crapgizers. My first test was flawed because I let time get away from me but anyway the NiMh have a better run time which was to be expected.
I really like the added voltage in my LED flashlights and will be buying more of them, I hope they hold up!
By the way great post brjones! I don't think anyone here will be crying over your long posts and "too much info"
I read in this thread somewhere someone (forgot who) lol had posted that NiZn chemistry likes high charge current rates better than low. I read the article and it's makes perfect sense for these batteries. Too bad I bought the black charger first because like you brjones I prefer a nice slow cool charge rate but sense these batteries are a different animal I will be checking to see if my local Big Lots has the white charger.
Wow. My batteries actually charged up to 1.9x volts. Some of them hit 2.0 volts. The voltage almost immediately drops though, to a very consistent 1.82 or 1.83 volts. Same exact result with both chargers. White charger was still using double the current the black one was, up to the end. It did lower, but the last draw I saw on the white one was double the last draw I saw on the white one. I think the white one started around 7.4 and ended in the low 4's, but was jumping around a lot, down into the 3's. The batteries in the white (truly faster) charger did NOT get hot. At least not in the middle of the charge when I felt them. Barely warm, actually. Then again, they were near full charge already, and I did 4 at once on both chargers.
Bluebeam, when you said it 'makes sense' that NiZn likes higher charge rates; can you expand on that, what were you basing it on? My reading has suggested that the battery chemistry is fragile, and sensitive, which includes not having a lot of durability (charge/discharge cycles) as well as sensitivity to overdischarging (which I have not confirmed). I think, if true, that would be ironic owing to the fact that NiZn's raison d'etre is so that they can be discharged fully and hence garner longer runtime, even if NiMH LSD's technically have more capacity. (NiMH batts often still have juice in the device quit or say 'empty').
I do think it's in extremely bad taste --at a minimum-- that PowerGenix put the words "Fast Charger" on the black one, and just "Charger" on the white one. Should I be disgusted or laugh? Or was it a mistake? No comments yet as to whether this was the cause of dumping an obviously massive inventory? The whole line is obviously being liquidated.
OK, so it took about 5 hours for the black charger to finish topping off the batts, and about half that for the white one. Which makes sense, because the white one puts in about double the current. Both of them reduced current at the end, but it was still at or near about 1 watt per battery (at the plug) on the white one. My cheapo (but surprisingly effective) single cell "all chemistries" charger from DX (also available at KD) draws only 1.4 watts, and I charge 18650's with that (then again, I also charge 3V CR2's with it). I wonder if the 'pulsing' i witnessed on the white charger (even more exaggerated at the end) has to do with "smart" sensing? Black charger didn't do it. Even I am beginning to think the white charger is the way to go. If I get the rated(?) 200 charges out of them, I'll still probably think it was money well spent, considering they're considered kind of 'niche', at least presently.
I'm not exactly sure where you read that NIZN chemistry was overly fragile, but Powergenix's documentation on their AAs suggests an optimal charge of C/2 - C. That's a very high charge rate.
From Wiki -
"Charging
NiZn technology is well suited for fast recharge cycling as optimum charge rates of C or C/2 are preferred [9].
Known charging regimes include constant current of C or C/2 to cell voltage = 1.9V. Maximum charge time is 2½ hours. Trickle charging is not recommended as recombination is not provided for and excess hydrogen will eventually vent adversely affecting battery cycle life. Charge is reinitiated after cell voltage has fallen below 1.6V"
brjones this is the article I read about the high charge rate of NiZn chemistry.
It is posted be Pook in this thread on the first page as well.
Thanks Guys. Okay, so how many watts is C? They rate their batteries in mWH (which I think makes way more sense). 2500mWH / 1.6V = 1562mAH, I suppose, where 1562 would be C. C/2 would be 781mA, but it gets confusing because these charge at around 1.9V, so I prefer watts for simplicity. 1562mA at 1.9V is 2.968 Watts, say 3.0. 1562mA at 1.6V would be 2.5 Watts. Half that would be 1.25W. So, we can safely say recommended Charge rate is "somewhere" between 1.25 and 3 watts per cell.
Referring to my own reference-grace post 
, on single cell charging, my Kill-A-Watt meter pulled 3.5 watts at the plug, which also read 10 Volt-Amps. (I still can't figure out this Power Factor thing, if Volts x Amps = Watts! Not sure which is more important here!) It was actually 3.7 watts in 3 of the 4 slots (could depend on the battery). Either way, that sounds a little high to me, though I know the charger is not 100% efficient. Doing 2 cells at a time on the white charger was the same 3.7 watts per cell, and doing 3 at a time (if it sensed 3 properly) was 2.46 watts per cell. And charging 4 at a time was 1.85 watts per cell. So it seems, you could kind of customize how much juice you wanted going to these anyway, just by adjusting the number of cells you put in (since it can charge any number). Remember that the wattage jumped around a lot too.
The Black charger charged at 1.25 Watts per cell or less. Not optimal per the above information. Hm. ... .... Well, actually, that is about C/2, or at the low end of the recommended charge rate. So the question becomes: where along the spectrum really IS the ideal charge rate? C over 2, or C? The quote doesn't say, but does mention C first, so I assume, like you said, that higher is better (to a point). I think I know which charger is going to my friend... . Thanks for helping me figure it out. I WANTED to like the white charger, I really did... more versatile, heavier, even better plastic if you ask me.
The information I got on NiZn chemistry was primarily from en.wikipedia.org, that bastion of objectiveness, but that was more on the history of NiZn. It's existed for at least the better part of a century, but was never made commercial, because the cells simply died too soon to be viable. PowerGenix developed a way to make the chemistry last through more charge/discharge cycles, but from what I read elsewhere (including hearsay, i.e. forums) the cells are only rated at 200 charge/discharge cycles(?), which is why I put a "(?)" next to that when I mentioned this in my OP. The Consumer spec sheet you supplied (thanks for the link) does not quote a charge/discharge cycle life. So 200 is uncomfirmed, but would match up with the chemistry's achilles heel. I understand quality LSD's are much higher than, like by several times over(? again--too tired to confirm right now). I also read hearsay about the cells being more vulnerable to wear from memory and/or deep discharge, which seems to conflict, so that's in the gray box and unconfirmed as well.
My primary relief was that the cells did not get hot in the white charger, at least with the 4-in-white-charger charge rate and nearly full capacity. A full-charge "feel" test on 1 cell (max current) would be in order I suppose. I have an old (90's) '1-hr charger' made for NiCd's which makes cells REALLY hot. The people on CPF looked at the listed charge rate and said it's desirable, don't worry about the heat. There's no way in my mind a battery could get that hot and not be damaged, I still believe. Dumb chargers go real slow to avoid making batteries hot & wearing them. I have NiMH's in cordless phones which lasted years under heavy use with dumb chargers and with careful (full) discharging and not leaving them on the charger, despite being below the recommended charge rate. I know an EE who is very cheap and charges batteries with a low-current salvaged/junk wall wart plugged into an outlet timer a few hours per day. The charge time isn't great enough to get the batteries hot, and even if it takes a few days (he knows he'll forget anyway), the batteries don't get very stressed. He frequently talked of heat being the enemy of batteries. I never did like the sound of "1 hour charger" either, and that's what the White charger is sometimes sold as... though now I realize that's also untrue.