The Old-Lumens Challenge - rules discussion

Giveaways and Contests
41

What would be good here is if the folk spoke up :face_with_open_eyes_and_hand_over_mouth: especially those that are mildly interested but do not enter the fun. What can management do to entice more participants and make it more broadly accepted?

It’s better to have the discussion now so details can be fleshed out. Personally I’m comfortable with how the rules currently are but i think it’s easier for me to say that than someone who’s entering the hand made category for the first time. Hand made is easily the most difficult category (like that juxta sentence? :yum: ).

I’m sure management will consider all suggestions so please come forward if you have one (or lots…) - duration and season, $$ spent , outsourcing and collaborations , use of existing pills / switches etc…

What do you think?

42

I just had a thought about marketing the comp. Can management reach out to influencers a week or so prior to start date and give the comp a plug in their social media? It doesn’t need to be limited to flashlight related, electronics , hobby/crafting , camping , boating/fishing/diving , cycling etc… there’s a lot of activities that often use portable lighting. Be it YouTube , blog , facebook etc… Also ak the sponsors to place a small banner on their website instead of supplying a prize?

Things like that to reach a broader audience.

43

It’s getting close to that time of year again!

Here’s what I think after organizing and judging the challenge for a few years now:

It would be better if it were possible to win first place from any category.

Why?

Historically, the winner of the “Hand Made” category gets pick of first prize and is basically the overall winner of the contest. The separate categories are judged independently of one another. Besides being a matter of tradition, this doesn’t seem warranted considering that hand made entries do not inherently require more time, effort, tools, or skill than machine made or modified entries. With the current rules, an entry in the modified category could get the highest score overall, but will get third choice of prize. The amount of effort required to complete the mod may have been incredible, far exceeding that of other entries, and yet it cannot win, relegated to third place as a matter of course. So, that’s just not really fair, and this aspect of the challenge may be limiting the entries in the subordinate categories.

The issue with changing the rules so that entrants could win from any category is that it calls into question the purpose of the categories themselves, unless such categories exist for nostalgia, or the purposes of self imposed restrictions on the available tools and materials as a bit of an extra challenge and as a matter of tradition.

So what if there were no categories, and basically no restrictions on the available parts, materials, and services that could be utilized?

That could work, and would make for some pretty simple rules. There could be some stipulations, such as a requirement to state when external services are used, what pre-made flashlights parts are used, where they come from if known and if not confidential, and so on. The judges will give credit where credit is due.

The end result would be that all entries would be judged relative to one another, and the overall winner would be the one which the judges deem most worthy of the prize, and the same goes for 2nd place, and so on.

Such a significant change to the rules will undoubtedly change the character of the builds to some extent, but this is not necessarily a bad thing, especially considering that it will allow more creative freedom, rather than less. It wouldn’t have to be a permanent thing, the rules will ultimately be up to the contest organizers each year, and will evolve over time, but for year 12 I think this would be worth a try.

What do you think?

1 Thank
44

Then I am out. It is very likely the one with the most professional machines, best connections to 3rd party services, most money will win the competition. Money rules it all, at least this is what is it in most cases, unfortunately.

Who has a realistic chance to win just with basic hand tools and sandpaper?

3 Thanks
45

Pretty sure CRX could still win it.

Do you see how the suborinate categories may have limited participants for exactly the same reason you specified? They can’t win. At least with the proposed rule change, you have a chance to win no matter what resources you have.

Rather than throw out an ultimatum, maybe give it some thought and suggest some ways in which the suggested change could be made to work, or suggest how the contest could be made better by changes to the current rules.

For example:
-Two categories instead of only one or three. Combine the “machine made” and “modified” categories together. Hand made would still always get 1st place, but modified would not be automatic 3rd place.
-Categorical handicaps, like in the sport of GOLF.

As for external services, the more you rely on external services, the less you might have actually done yourself. The DIY / effort aspect could be an integral part of the judging / scoring. There are a couple of scoring categories which are practically redundant, like the innovation category, so the score card already could use some revision imo.

In regards to your concern, sure, it could be assumed that people with actual machinery would be likely to win, if they also do something elaborate and innovative, and also do a good job at the actual fabrication work, and of documenting the process in their challenge thread. At the same time, I still think you could win without such tools. Even with my skillset and cnc equipment, it would not be a given that I would beat CRX, for example. And it certainly would not be a fast process for me to produce something worthy of the win. It would likely take me hundreds of hours to design, program, machine, assemble, and test my entry, and to document it along the way.

46

Touchè. In fact you make all good points. I also think that while investing money, machines etc… can seem like it enhances one’s chances, historically overall winners (people’s choice) are often hand made. People respect skill, ability and ideas not how much you spent on it.

2 Thanks
47

The use of external services takes away a lot of the DIY for fun and enjoyment idea, does it not?

While I can appreciate the thought process behind amalgamating everything into a single class, I believe that changing rules such as the origin of parts or utilization of purchased outside services simply exchanges one type of perceived injustice with different issues.

I could prevail upon one of the people at the prototype machine shop (where I still have some connections that I have never utilized for any Old Lumens Challenge) to use their high level CNC programming expertise along with the shop’s 5-axis turning center to translate dreams of a complex, intricate shape and function into a reality. I would not do that as, in my opinion, that would obviate the DIY ethic that exemplified what Old Lumens did. Or does the Old Lumens DIY value system not matter at this point?

I believe that no matter what changes may be made, or not made, there will always be some inequity sensed by some folks. Nothing, no system is perfect and at times I feel that “things” can be broken when attempting to fix some issue.

I have no idea at present if I am “in” for a challenge project this year regardless of any rule changes or no rule changes. There is another bothersome factor I need to consider.

Anyhow, that is my two cents worth.

1 Thank
48

Thanks for the good points @Hoop and @koef3 .
How about a more middle-of-the-road approach? Maybe reduce it to 2 categories and use a weighted average to give a sort of “handicap” advantage to handmade entries while still rewarding exceptional effort/skill in machined entries? Something like:

  1. Fabricated (hand tools or machining tools and/or 3D printers)
    • Higher weight for “resourcefulness” and/or “unique solutions” criteria
    • Higher weight for “fit and finish” criterion
    • Plus other criteria similar to last time
    • No using 3rd party services
  2. Modded Light
    • Rules similar to last time
    • No using 3rd party services

Then, awards for the winner and runner-up of each category, plus a people’s choice award going to any of the other non-winning entries.

49

I don’t think outsourcing is going to make an instant winner. It is one of the biggest points of contention as it doesn’t align with Old Lumens ideology. In fact Justin disliked most machinery and prized the use of hand tools. He also modified a lot more than he made from scratch.

With that in mind I’ll suggest 2 categories -
1 handmade and modified
2 machine made and outsourced

1 Thank
50

For me, the current division and weighting of the “handmade” and “machine” categories makes perfect sense. Due to the limited use of machines, the massive amount of time required and the considerably more limited possibilities, the handmade category is weighted higher, while a win in the machine category could (theoretically) simply be achieved by investing massive amounts of money (here: Purchasing from third-party suppliers, using extremely expensive premium machines, not to forget software to design the objects). As already mentioned: with these machines, you simply have many more options to achieve extremely impressive results professionally and very cleanly. I can see it myself here: what is possible with CNC, 3D printing and lathes can simply never be achieved purely “handmade”, not to mention any precision.

“Unique solutions” is a purely subjective perception. How can you judge that objectively? Take my Tubuslux One from last year, for example: for some people it is either unique (because it was created from pipe parts), for others it is mediocre at best (because the pipe parts were already roughly in flashlight design and only needed to be adapted slightly). And such “unique solutions” can be created with the excessive use of machines and third-party suppliers, because this opens up completely different possibilities in design and construction. And “fit and finish” is just as subjective. One person likes a raw finish, another likes a highly polished finish or super-precise milled decorative patterns. In general, clean or extremely high-quality finishes are almost impossible to achieve by hand. How can this be assessed fairly?

51

Note - my suggestion still separated handmade and machine made.

1 Thank
52

I would separate handmade and machine made, and penalize machine made. Also, allow external services for machine made, bur further penalize them over home-owned machines.

1 Thank
53

Not sure which side of the argument to stand on, but from my point of view the categories make it fair for everyone. You are competing against builds which hopefully are made in a similar way as yours.

However i do believe this should not be pay to win. Whatever is the fairest for everyone is best. I read last years rules as :

the judges were already taking into account that everyone will have different means to work with.

Perhaps the best approach is to not get rid of the categories altogether, but as @pinkpanda3310 suggested to combine multiple categories together. Maybe its worth considering changing the judging criteria, although I personally have no idea how to go about it. Maybe someone can suggest ideas.

Also, responding to @ebastler s idea, i dont believe the use of machines should be penalized as they are just tools and they do still require skills to use although a totally different skill set compared to small hand tools. If anything, just 3d or CNC style machines should be penalized, or penalized more than manual machines. If you take this approach, you should also further clarify the definition of what a machine tool is and what is or isnt allowed.

EDIT: after thinking about this for a while and reading @ebastler s comment, in my opinion its a bad idea to penalize privately owned machines. Just think about it. A home owned machine will be of far inferior quality of lets say a buisness who has high end fabrication tools. This will be reflected in the final product. After taking @sb56637 and @pinkpanda3310 s posts discussing outsourcing and 3rd party services, i believe these should be banned or penalized. Imagine this scenario: if “outsourced” refers to designing a flashlight and then getting someone else like a business or person to make it for you seems unfair to me. There is no doubt that there is immense skill involved in designing something, especially if its unique or innovative. But this whole idea of getting someone else, perhaps with more experience or means of fabrication to do the hard work for you seems like cheating or pay to win. Regarding 3rd party services, i believe some are highly useful eg. Powdercoating or anodization. And some ruin the spirit of the challenge like engineering/design/fabrication services. Its pay to win.

1 Thank
54

Fair point. But there is already a lot of subjectivity in the scoring system, not saying that’s a bad thing, it’s just the nature of this sort of contest. That’s one of the reasons why there are multiple judges.

2 Thanks
55

It might be a bit long winded but let me make this analogy.

I hold a music competition. It’s a new competition in a small town. Given its a small town i keep the rules relatively loose in an effort to include / invite more people. One of the rules is more kudos for playing the instrument yourself.

One the day i get 5 groups show up which is a little less than i hoped for. Each wants to be scored on their own merits and each doesn’t really care for the prize rather they want the exposure, bragging rites, and to boost their career.

The groups are -
1 an acoustic jazz trio
2 an indie pop band
3 a heavy metal band
4 a school marching band
5 some kid with dj decks

… do you see where I’m going with that? … How do you not only judge but pick a clear winner? I could take it a step further and talk about how the groups are unwilling to compete against each other but I’ll leave it at that.

That’s kind of what it’s like for the OL organisers and judges.

1 Thank
56

… big flurry of comments eh…

How about this, flip the whole thing around, “It’s a Challenge” no competition, no prizes, just a showcase of “look what i made!”

In any case I expect the OL challenge to continue to be a very small niche group of persons. Flashaholics aren’t interested in this. Look back at the last couple years build threads and the vast majority of commenters are the other participants. The OL challenge needs a larger pool or at least needs exposure to a groups that are more diy inclined.

1 Thank
57

Nah, I have to admit that I disagree with the no competition part. It is a contest after all and a bit of competition is healthy. I absolutely agree with you that not enough people seem to be intrsested in it. More people would certainly make it better. Also if you want a showcase of the builds, there is the ‘what did you mod today’ thread.

58

The what did you mod thread is mostly emitter swaps and spectrum charts nowadays. The idea of this challenge is to encourage to people to step outside what they would normally do and test themselves. I can’t disagree that competition adds an element of upping the stakes. I’m just throwing ideas to see if the current pool of watchers might become interested in participating.

1 Thank
59

With the loss of shop classes in most schools it should not be surprising that the folks today just have not been exposed into building something metal/wood from scratch.
Am not putting down computer coding, that is a useful tool in todays world. just saying times have changed whether we like it or not.

koef3 LED tester earlier said;
“Who has a realistic chance to win just with basic hand tools and sandpaper?”

Answer is Justin as in Old Lumens, but he is not with us anymore unfortunately.
Dude was really one of only a few.

1 Thank
60

Fair point that it’s a changing world. Why mod a light to your preferences when you can get on blf and make requests direct to companies.

The idea that machine made / outsourced makes a winner is a fallacy. Look at all the People’s Choice winners -

FMC handmade
CRX handmade
CRX handmade
CRX handmade
gchart handmade
G0OSE handmade
MtnDon handmade
MtnDon and YuvalS handmade
koef3 handmade

1 Thank