Instead of worrying about who isn’t shipping to whom, perhaps we should wrap our minds around this.
Don’t you worry about that, we are coming, right after you 
Already Finland taking more loans than we can pay, debt is NOT YET too large but it will be.
Helping other countries is expensive also, but not the main deal.
Some people criticize it because it makes big losses almost by snapping fingers.
IMO I cannot see greek people as ones to blame, not even greek politics. But banking practices, uhhh…
This whole thing: “give money to X country in debt to help” is a bit misleading when you should say: pay the money to a bank, which has been taking huge risks to make enormous profits by funding blindfolded as much as they can.
For last, two things:
“Too big to fall…”
“Give man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish, feed him for a lifetime”
In the US, the ‘losers’ as you put it have the right to pursue any career they’d like to…open a business, create a product, go to school etc…if they choose to be lazy, they will end up in the bottom half. You should be painfully aware of how well it worked when the government was in charge…where is the GDR now? Sounds like you miss it.
Freedom is not being free to demand what you want and then wrangle for a system where you can take it by force, fiat, or government. If somebody outbids you for a good, they have used their freedom and kept you from getting what you want, but that isn’t a restriction on your freedom. Your freedom is the right to produce more so as to win the good - or not as you may choose.
Using results is a false measure because there are never equal inputs and none of us have the right to tell each other they must produce at some arbitrary level. Every structure leads to asymmetry . . there is no world leader who is making minimum wage and only using power and perks of their position for the betterment of others.
Losers may be happy with spending their time on non-financial production interests, or they may choose to feel otherwise. How they feel is their free choice; but if/when they choose to try to goad or force others to do something about it then they are thieves of others’ liberty. It doesn’t even matter how many feel that way, they would still be thieves by using force of government to steal.
I generally agree with your post. But for clarity -
When people encourage and allow their own governments to take the loans, they are creating the problem. They must stand up and require responsibility of their leaders and themselves if they are moral and respect the liberty of those granting the loans.
Taking more loans than can be paid is neither, it is taking a hamburger today with a promise to pay next Tuesday and then saying oops when Tuesday comes. See the section above.
It is not austerity to live with the fish one catches today and work toward doing better than that. It is ignorance to think that the ocean has an unlimited bounty and that there is not additional responsibility to produce beyond simply taking a natural resource that can be easily replenished/recycled. Teach them to grow their own fish so that thy eat for a lifetime and share with others is the higher truth.
Capitalism at its core is simply trading. We’ve just found a way to complicate it is all (e.g. debt, inflation). It’s essentially an evolution of bartering as it seeks to eliminate the process of finding a bartering partner. You can trade your currency, whether it be trinkets or paper currency, for a product and you can trade your labor for more currency. Some people just happen to be better at trading than others. Sure, some have an advantage over others, but this economic system, AT ITS CORE, still allows everyone to prosper. Once we stop complaining about those who have more and simply be responsible for our own decisions then we can stop demanding more tax payer subsidies. Capitalism, IN ITS TRUE FORM, allows you to be greedy, but it also allows you to provide for yourself and your family to the extent you feel is necessary. Yes, it’s similar to the stock market in that you have winners and losers, but it’s our perception of what a loser is that makes us feel capitalism is a faulty system. Compare today’s standard of living to that of 100 years ago and it’s like comparing kings to surfs. Even if buying power has eroded, determining standard of living as it evolves is unfair. You’re basically including cable tv and AC, which aren’t necessary. Living conditions have drastically increased at a price that is affordable to almost everyone. We make excuses for irresponsible decisions. How can we continue giving handouts to people who buy cigarettes, excessive booze and expensive cell phones?
This is the question I would like an answer to: Why is there high unemployment when I see numerous “now hiring” signs at fast food restaurants, all the while many of these unemployed are also accepting food stamps and subsidized housing? Too good for those jobs?
I would love the PERFECT economic model that benefits everyone at an equal share, but we’re too greedy and corrupt for that. With that in mind, the last thing I want is someone with arbitrary authority dictating how much I get. Just look at Detroit politics for the past 50 years and see how well it benefited the residents. One election year after another the uneducated voters are duped into believing unrealistic promises. I apologize if I’ve offended anyone with Detroit ties.
Thats backward and defetistic mindset, and often an excuse.
People are more powerful than politicians.
Well, today’s caoiutalism is 97% gambling and speculations.
Only small percent of trading and money changing hands is connected with real tangible goods.
It is far from bartering. This is totally perverted form, its not evolution of bartering.
SOme kind of modern barter system would be far superior to what we have now.
Perfect economic model would be sharing of world resouces, and there is enough of them for all.
Such economic plan already exist, just need to be implemented.
Every country, poor or rich, has some resource in excess, in surplus, and it lacks some resources. And with global bartering system these resources and surpluces can be exchanged, without speculations, extra profits etc.
That way all would profit (in broad sense of the world).
Also, many times I find this kind of mindset, we are to greedy for that or to corrupt for something else etc. I think that maybe we are, and maybe we are not. Maybe we are not informed well, and we are not educated what are repercusiions of that greed.
Also, bottom line is that we are learning, although slowly, from our mistakes, from the consequences of our mistake. And this global crisis, or better to say economic collapse, is also a consequence off some cause.
Im optimistic in these matters, and always when someone says something like that, we are to greedy for something, do dumb for something, I wold ak him, are you to greedy for something like that, to corrupt? If you are not, how can you be so arrogant t conclude that its not the same with many others. If you are, well, than again, you cant judge it only by yourself.
I think that most important thing is that when people larn something, when they really learn something, they change their actions accordingly. And people have capability of learning (although slowly)
And here, right now wee are slowly learning, consequences of our actions are teaching us, that this system is destroying everything and all. It wasd never ghood for the world. It was good only for the smaller part of the world, but for majority of the world this system never worked.
And now when it become so corrrupted that it is also not good anymore for that smaller part of the world, (wich has most responsibility), now it slowly dawns to our minds that it has to be changed.
What’s really funny is how this thread which was about a failed Socialist state turned into Free-market bashing!
Why don’t you read some basic history and find out what happened after the agricultural farming became more efficient? What happened to the 90% of the world population which used to work on the farmlands? Did they not find better jobs? Did they not end up with more income? Did they not have much better standard of living at the end? This is so easy to understand that it really takes a true marxist to dismiss it! (and I apologize for calling you a marxist if you’re not!)
You’re basically saying a bulldozer can be a bad thing because it takes away the job of 10 people with shovels.
Same as saying if the world only didn’t have all these capital, equipments and techniques we would all be doing better!!!
Without the efficiency of market economy you wouldn’t be able to type all that nonsense on the internet and certainly not have any flashlights to play with.
Just want to add that I didn’t mean it was necessarily a POSITIVE evolution. I couldn’t think of a better word to describe it. The part about eliminating the process of connecting with an appropriate bartering partner is positive, but the way we have perverted the basic form of capitalism is certainly the underlying negative we’re facing today. One of the silliest forms of this is the speculative nature of real estate valuation. Funny thing how my 3 bedroom/2 bath is 250k one day, 300k 2 years later and then 225k 2 years after that, all the while the double cheeseburger remained at $3.25.
I live S of Detroit & have sadly watched this happen for over 50 yr. Detroit has been abandoned to Demagoguery!
Keith
Very timely cone! Think, talk, act. Seems many have lost that ability/desire. You can’t hardly get people to talk, much less think. Not referring to anyone in this thread. Great thread. Very civil.
Keith
Thanks, Keith. Since that video didn’t come from YouTube I couldn’t figure out how to embed it any way other than the link. I’m glad at least one person saw it as it is probably the single most important video I think I’ve ever seen. As a pure Libertarian I’m already predisposed to accept the message. It may be a bit pollyannaish, but I really think that if the people of the world could grasp the simple truth outlined in that video, life would be a lot simpler.
Greece is just the canary in the coal mine and anyone with a modicum of critical reasoning skills can should be able to see it spreading through the so called “PIIGS”, the rest of Europe, here in America, then the rest of the world. But the problem isn’t with Capitalism, Socialism, or free markets that aren’t. The problem is with universal human nature. The problem for me in the end is about personal responsibility and self reliance. Personal ownership and the concept of “cause and effect”… and maybe a little third grade math… go a long way to avoiding problems personal to global in size.
Sixty posts so far and it has remained largely civil. Where is gorran when you need him. I knew banning him was a bad idea.
So my efforts to spread the the gospel have not been in vain.
Although I think the USA is beyond the point of no return or at least not return quietly. Having socialist countries fail will give us a chance to point to the failure of socialism and maybe correct course.
I don’t have much faith though. Too many people are on the government dole and I doubt they are willing to vote away that tit they have their lips so tightly wrapped around.
I find it interesting that France and Greece have decided to fix their problems, not by austerity and taking the burden off of bussiness, but by going further into the deep end of socialism as evidenced by their last elections.
Example France. Austerity Reaches the Hollande Government in France
It will be interesting to see how it all turns out, although I think I already know.
I take no small solace in the fact that the pendulum will always swing back the other way.
For all of our failings, the two things we always seem to have are hope and endurance.
“My God, what have I done?” — Kirk
“What you always do. Turn death into a fighting chance to live.” — McCoy
The problem in Greece is not just political, it is much deeper. I would characterize that as constructive. In the last (double) ellections, seemed that something was going to change but, the result reminds the old problematic governments.
People in Greece need social justice and they are will to pay the circumstances.
We need a trustful goverment which can make the proper changes, even If they are not delightful.
Beyond that, I live and work in Crete, so in case somebody visits my island, is welcome with his flashlights, for a walk in the mountains and beaches. E4 path, as I mentioned before, has great routes here!
For the first: yes. So called “problem” here is, that people do not revolt or make riots. People vote here.
The thing is, not too many are up to these debt things and they generally a) believe everything what media says b) vote the party that promises most BEFORE elections / does not vote party that will make strict economy c) business oriented or very well doing people, who have tons of backup plans and are not really affected by recessions d) don’t vote at all…
For the second: Agreed. Country with problems is only surviving a short period with financial help, they need to get their own business standing up and countrys economy to the plus side. Otherwise they just run out the money year after year and a bank says Thanks!
Don’t give them money, use same amount and build them infra, tools, whatever for them to make own income.
No idea is it possible in any way but why not?
Oh NOO, here’s Gorann, he found U.S. and A. inside big c**k 
hahahah
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1914/usaht.jpg
(credit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brtsp1VaH2A )