HaikeLite XHP70 Thrower Prototype Sneak Preview

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Tom E
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I know all those basics of power, voltage, V=I*R, etc., but I don't buy buck drivers are always superior, not in the real world, not with real parts and costs in mind. Theoretical, yes, but practically, all buck drivers have loss's, boost drivers even more so.

The real issue is how efficient does power from the cells get to the LED(s). I more than understand high voltage has it's advantages, but having the technology to buck it down with 100% efficiency doesn't exist as far as I know of. I thought the loss's were in the 20% range. We've been working/struggling with expensive buck drivers for several years here. Myself and others have had our share of blowing up IOS and KD bucks at $20-$25 a pop. Hank finally gave up on them from losing money on them. Others did too, or they would not warrantee them.

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2S2P should run with only two batteries, no? I’m about to go camping with it, and that’s the only way I can think of to check it until I come back home.

The low mode should be lower.

Reviews: Efan IMR18350 700mAh 10.5A, <a href="http://

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Oh, and I wasn’t asked which I preferred. I wish they had asked me. I’m thinking a new tailcap should be easy to make. I think I’m going to try making one. Unfortunately it won’t make the threads any smoother. I already see quite a bit of silver under the anodization. Later on I’ll try to take a look through a loupe and take some measurements to see if I can figure out how they could have machined those threads better. I really hope they’ll refine this light, and take the feedback here and avoid these mistakes on their upcoming “super” lights.

The low mode should be lower.

Reviews: Efan IMR18350 700mAh 10.5A, <a href="http://

Tom E
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They told me it was 2 brackets swapped out converts it between 2S2P and 4S - maybe they will send or sell you them? I did run the light on a single pair of cells - I measured amps that way, I believe. Pretty sure the one driver handles both - it's a buck driver but performs as a linear in the 2S2P config - that's common - I've seen with other bucks.

I posted earlier they are now offering the 4S configured lights on their website.

here: http://haikelite.top/index.php/haikelite-mt07-buffalo-cree-xhp70-flashlight-4s.html

They say "full current regulation but less Runtime".

I'm assuming now most people would prefer the 4S configuration. I might have misled them a bit because I preferred the 2S2P, but thought I told them the 4S would be popular... Hhmm... I think they got more testing in on the 2S2P. They got runtime specs on the 2S2P, but not on the 4S.

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Would haikelight be offering the buffalo in Smo reflectors and 4s 12v configuration? A good thrower gotta have it smooth. Still waiting for the beam shot comparison between Smo and lop reflectors.

If U R reading this, U R also a Flashaholic. Pfft <3

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not sure why but im starting to lose interest on this light now >.<

Nico -.-

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djburkes wrote:
Lol, you two kill me. I like fet based drivers because I usually push for max output but I’ve got two lights that have the same battery carriers that are set up 4s so to keep from having to change up the carriers I’m going to have to go with a buck driver. I plan on putting a XHP35 in one and a XHP50 in the other. It’s easy to mod a light with a fet and a 6v led set up but I’m finding it a little more difficult with a buck and a 12v setup. I know I probably can’t push the XHP35 over 2.5a but I have no clue on the XHP50.

The XHP50 can handle FET drivers wide open.

The XHP35 can apparently handle FET drivers with the max duty limited to limit current but I have not had time to test it yet myself.

FET drivers are simple, cheap and robust. They are not the best drivers though, a good buck is far better but also many times the price and complexity.

Texas_Ace
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Tom E wrote:

I know all those basics of power, voltage, V=I*R, etc., but I don’t buy buck drivers are always superior, not in the real world, not with real parts and costs in mind. Theoretical, yes, but practically, all buck drivers have loss’s, boost drivers even more so.


The real issue is how efficient does power from the cells get to the LED. I more than understand high voltage has it’s advantages, but having the technology to buck it down with 100% efficiency doesn’t exist as far as I know of. I thought the loss’s were in the 20% range. We’ve been working/struggling with expensive buck drivers for several years here. Myself and others have had our share of blowing up IOS and KD bucks at $20-$25 a pop. Hank finally gave up on them from losing money on them. Others did too, or they would not warrantee them.

It depends on your goals. If you goal is max power to the LED, then higher voltage will always win.

In the case of a FET driver you will get more power to the LED running an XHP70 @ 12v vs 6V due to less losses in the circuit. It will also be more efficient overall due to this (although a pretty small percentage but there none the less). In fact an FET driver at 12V could very well pop an XHP70 or overdrive it to the point of silly. There is also more voltage overhead to pull from so even higher amps can be seen

In the case of a buck driver running a 6V LED at 12V will by FAR have the higher output ability. Basically unlimited really as there is ample voltage overhead to pull from. What this means is not only that you could run the XHP70 at 15+ amps if you wanted, it could also maintain that output till the cells are basically empty.

Buck vs FET drivers are a completely different subject when it comes to driver efficiency (which is totally separate from LED efficiency).

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Fatlight wrote:
Would haikelight be offering the buffalo in Smo reflectors and 4s 12v configuration? A good thrower gotta have it smooth. Still waiting for the beam shot comparison between Smo and lop reflectors.

SMO/4S/XHP35 HI --> Might be a possibility

Not aware if an SMO exists yet.

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One recommendation to HaikeLite. From my point of view…

When you choose the reviewers, please ask them for a minimum of parameters and conditions of presentation.

Especially in this case, until now the beamshot is missing and eventually comparing with the competitors. I’m on a click from the purchase and waiting for details …
The next product knock on the door and the lost time for complete advertising/presentation is important.

Surely nothing against Tom! He spends a lot of time and effort in R&D in the forum and has a great review, but with a some details missing.

hIKARInoob
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Tom E wrote:

Fatlight wrote:
Would haikelight be offering the buffalo in Smo reflectors and 4s 12v configuration? A good thrower gotta have it smooth. Still waiting for the beam shot comparison between Smo and lop reflectors.

SMO/4S/XHP35 HI —> Might be a possibility


Not aware if an SMO exists yet.

Well they did ask in the beginning what our preference was; XHP70 or XHP35 (HI). Minor changes and they can offer both. Seems like a win win to me.

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I personally prefer the 2S2P set up my self. To me this setup makes more sense this style set up is good for direct drive i guess. Bucking a higher voltage will give less sag but for sure run times will suffer. Plus there is the issue of safety for a standard consumer. Buck drivers will also create more heat need more space to work.
I get it you are using more voltage instead of amperage to create the watts. Obviously TA knows more then me hes in the driver building business did you see my pics mi took TA of the driver form the MT03?

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Bonham wrote:
One recommendation to HaikeLite. From my point of view…

When you choose the reviewers, please ask them for a minimum of parameters and conditions of presentation.

Especially in this case, until now the beamshot is missing and eventually comparing with the competitors. I’m on a click from the purchase and waiting for details …
The next product knock on the door and the lost time for complete advertising/presentation is important.

Surely nothing against Tom! He spends a lot of time and effort in R&D in the forum and has a great review, but with a some details missing.


I’m sure someone will have beamshots up by the time I get my 4S MT03 & MT07, but I’ll make sure to prioritize areas where info is limited.
Tom E
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Bonham wrote:
*One recommendation to HaikeLite*. From my point of view... When you choose the reviewers, please ask them for a minimum of parameters and conditions of presentation. Especially in this case, until now the beamshot is missing and eventually comparing with the competitors. I'm on a click from the purchase and waiting for details ... The next product knock on the door and the lost time for complete advertising/presentation is important. Surely nothing against Tom! He spends a lot of time and effort in R&D in the forum and has a great review, but with a some details missing.

No, I definitely deserve some blame. Thought I'd get to it over the weekend but didn't happen. Another reviewer, mhanlen, I'm sure with beamshots is due in another week or two - see post #212 for his comments.

I rushed my review out in one night basically - first day I got it. Let me see if I can do at least something this evening. We got some rain here, but it's 10%-25% chance here so might be an opportunity. I've done some outdoor use, plus wallshot comparisons, but no pictures.

It's a tighter spill than a L6, but that's expected because of the deeper reflector, and no hash or cross in the center because of the OP. Mine is the CW, so I could compare against a CW L6 if that helps. Also have some dedicated throwers but they are not in the same class as a XHP70 thrower.

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everydaysurvivalgear wrote:
I personally prefer the 2S2P set up my self. To me this setup makes more sense this style set up is good for direct drive i guess. Bucking a higher voltage will give less sag but for sure run times will suffer. Plus there is the issue of safety for a standard consumer. Buck drivers will also create more heat need more space to work. I get it you are using more voltage instead of amperage to create the watts. Obviously TA knows more then me hes in the driver building business did you see my pics mi took TA of the driver form the MT03?

Really I have no vendetta or anything of that nature. There is simply a lot of misinformation floating around about cell setup born from years of 3V emitter use with FET based drivers.

Now that we are starting to move past these old times I think it is time to put some of those myths to rest.

I did see the pictures of the MT03 and it is a buck driver for sure, although how the buck driver is setup I do not know but I can assume some things.

Please note, I am not calling you out or picking on your personally at all with these next statements, I am simply using them as examples.

Myths about cell setup:

Myth: 4s1p will have less runtime then 2s2p

Truth: Both setups have exactly the same amount of stored energy (about 45-50 watt hours depending on cells used). The only variable is how bright the LED is / how much power you are feeding it. So in low mode it might last a few days but in turbo it could only last 30-40 minutes. Given equal brightness they will have exactly the same runtime (well technically the 2s2p will have slightly less due to higher losses in the circuit but not enough to really matter).

Myth: 2s is safer then 4s?

Truth: I honestly do not even know if this is what you were meaning? 2s vs 4s is exactly the same when it comes to safety, the chances of getting shocked by either is basically zero. If you are talking about the 4s ability to run at full power until empty, this light has thermal regulation anyways and it will knock the power down as it heats up anyways. So I honestly do not know what this comment was in reference to?

Myth: 4s will create more heat then 2s

Truth: 2s will actually cause more heat in the driver then 4s due to higher amperage and larger losses in the driver. Amps is what causes heat in the circut, voltage has very little effect on heat inside the circuit.

In these particular lights which use a buck driver and have thermal regulation there is no reason to not use the 4S, I stand by this. These lights will be limited not be the cell setup but by heat anyways and the thermal regulation will step the power down to the same level in either setup to maintain those temps.

The difference is that the 2s will start dropping below the highest maintainable temp due to voltage sag but the 4s will maintain it throughout the entire cell life.

If people see this as a bad thing, then why not simply turn the power level down to medium and get the same or longer runtime with the 4s setup?

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No problem this is why i was asking. I am no driver expert. I can understand. I honestly do not use that many buck drivers i am more likely to use a boost then buck.

I though running 4 cells in a series would be more dangerous then 2 in a series. Just for the fact that you have so many cells in series and the batteries have to match and that kind of stuff?

I could be crazy but say for instance if you use a 12 volt XHP70 with the 4S setup and you use a 6 volt XHP70 for the 2S2P set up. Would they even out in a sense would this be more closely matched? Does it also make a differences how the LEDs are set up like if they are in parallel or series?

Wow my sentence structure was bad lol Maybe i should go to bed! Edited!

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everydaysurvivalgear wrote:
No problem this is why i was asking. I am no driver expert. I can understand. I honestly do not use that many buck drivers i am more likely to use a boost then buck.

I though running 4 cells in a series would be more dangerous then 2 in a series. Just for the fact that you have so many cells in series and the batteries have to match and that kind of stuff?

I could be crazy but say for instance if you use a 12 volt XHP70 with the 4S setup and you use a 6v XHP70 for the 2S2P would they even out in a sense would this be more closely matches? Does it also make a differences how the LEDs are set up like if they are in parallel or series?

It is hard to talk about this kind of stuff due to the fact that while the same things apply, they apply to a much different extent in different driver setups.

The whole series being dangerous / having to balance all the cells perfectly is something that was blown WAY out of proportion years ago.

The fact is that as long as you are using the same cells, ideally purchased together, a single discharge will not unbalance them enough to be worth worrying about.

The issue with series setups is when they are charged AND discharged in series. This will amplify the un-balance issues over time until you do run into issues.

Since we always pull the cells out to charge them individually this is a non-issue for us. Even battery packs I have opened with hundred of charge cycles on them without balancing have been amazingly close in the balance.

A 6v XHP70 run on 2s2p will put out a lot of power, a 12v XHP70 run on 4s1p would put out a fair amount more total wattage due to less voltage sag in the wires/circuit and thus more total wattage feeding the LED.

If you have a multiple LED light, running the LED’s in series is by far the best method to go. This ensures that all the LED’s get the same exact current and also makes everything more efficient due to needing much less amps.

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Thanks mate!
Usually people just get angry and do not explain some proper but this is Thumbs Up

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I’m certainly no expert (although MANY years ago I studied to become an electrical engineer), but after reading about LiIon here on BLF (and other forums), I think the dangers of mishandling the cells shouldn’t be neglected. The biggest risk (apart from using rubbish cells and chargers) seems to be charging the cells in series (without individual cell monitoring).

As long as the charging is done separately (individually in a separate charger) and the cells are identical (and have been used together all the time, with the same number of cycles) it should be OK to use them in series during the discharge, at least until one of them gets worn out. So the cells individual condition needs to be monitored at all times.

Many of the accidents with burning hover-boards seems to be related to charging the LiIon cells in serial without individual monitoring of the cells.

Running cells only in parallel is of course always safer, but not without risks either.

Since higher voltage brings down all losses and makes everything more efficient, it’s a balancing act (as most things in life).

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Texas Ace, thanks for posting that information,
I have been trying to figure out all that was just discussed and was leaning towards the 4S, mainly because I didn’t know anything about what I do know now thanks to your great explanations and all I was doing and thinking was, I have the M43 and all batteries are what I know now as 4S and when I test them are all in perfect sync discharge state, of course I did intentionally buy all my batteries at the same time as the light and use them only in that light and it works so perfectly for me, so that was all I was going by when trying to figure out which configuration to buy.
I had not seen before a 2S2P light and couldn’t understand why they would consider that as an option, but I sort of understand now, thanks again.
BG has these for sale and there is a coupon floating around by Martin that brings the 07 from $95 to $80 and the 03 from $129 to $109.99, leaves a little money for the HaikeLite suggested Sanyo GA 18650 or other semi-button top unprotected 18650s which RMM has a good price for the Sanyo’s GA’s unprotected.
I have also asked BG which version they are selling as it does not say on their site and it does make a difference as I’ve come to understand.
Still leaves me to wonder which light the MT03 or MT07, but at least I know it’s 4S preferably per explanations by and thanks to T-A.. Thank You, I was very confused, and maybe still am.. Smile

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T18 wrote:
Texas Ace, thanks for posting that information, I have been trying to figure out all that was just discussed and was leaning towards the 4S, mainly because I didn’t know anything about what I do know now thanks to your great explanations and all I was doing and thinking was, I have the M43 and all batteries are what I know now as 4S and when I test them are all in perfect sync discharge state, of course I did intentionally buy all my batteries at the same time as the light and use them only in that light and it works so perfectly for me, so that was all I was going by when trying to figure out which configuration to buy. I had not seen before a 2S2P light and couldn’t understand why they would consider that as an option, but I sort of understand now, thanks again. BG has these for sale and there is a coupon floating around by Martin that brings the 07 from $95 to $80 and the 03 from $129 to $109.99, leaves a little money for the HaikeLite suggested Sanyo GA 18650 or other semi-button top unprotected 18650s which RMM has a good price for the Sanyo’s GA’s unprotected. I have also asked BG which version they are selling as it does not say on their site and it does make a difference as I’ve come to understand. Still leaves me to wonder which light the MT03 or MT07, but at least I know it’s 4S preferably per explanations by and thanks to T-A.. Thank You, I was very confused, and maybe still am.. Smile

Sorry to confuse you, but your M43 (Noctigon) is 4P ;-).

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T18 wrote:
I have the M43 and all batteries are what I know now as 4S

Now I get confused; at least my M43 runs the cells in parallel

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RollerBoySE wrote:
T18 wrote:
I have the M43 and all batteries are what I know now as 4S

Now I get confused; at least my M43 runs the cells in parallel

Yep. Thrunite TN36-UT and mini TN30 for example run the four cells in series, i.e. 4S.

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RollerBoySE wrote:
I’m certainly no expert (although MANY years ago I studied to become an electrical engineer), but after reading about LiIon here on BLF (and other forums), I think the dangers of mishandling the cells shouldn’t be neglected. The biggest risk (apart from using rubbish cells and chargers) seems to be charging the cells in series (without individual cell monitoring).

As long as the charging is done separately (individually in a separate charger) and the cells are identical (and have been used together all the time, with the same number of cycles) it should be OK to use them in series during the discharge, at least until one of them gets worn out. So the cells individual condition needs to be monitored at all times.

Many of the accidents with burning hover-boards seems to be related to charging yhe LiIon cells in serial without individual monitoring of the cells.

Running cells only in parallel is of course always safer, but not without risks either.

Since higher voltage brings down all losses and makes everything more efficient, it’s a balancing act (as most things in life).

You do need to follow basic lithium handling protocols naturally but even these are blown out of proportion IMHO. I have taken apart hundreds of Battery packs, many of them 10-20 years old with unknown hundreds of cycles on them. Virtually none of them with balance charging.

It always amazes me that even with all that use they are generally within .1v of each other in balance (minus bad call naturally).

On top of that the battery packs I have built with old, mismatched, virtually dead cells also maintain an amazing level of balance as a rule, even without balance charging them (which is why I use old nearly dead cells, I simply do not care enough about them to balance them).

Basically even int he worst possible conditions I have come to find that cells do not just randomly fall out of balance. There has to be some serious abuse for this to happen (or a bad cell naturally).

Even if the cells were mis-matched in a single discharge it is just about impossible for a set of the same cells, from the same batch to be come mismatched enough to over-discharge any single cell to the point of damage assuming you have LVP on the light.

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I too am surprised by the relative scarcity of LiIon accidents. We’ve been using LiIon cells for 20 years and there are billions of devices using them out there.

So why so few accidents (relatively speaking)?

Could it be that quality used to be higher, since there was more money to go around (devices using LiIon used to be pretty expensive)?

Maybe today’s mass market production have gone one step too far in its penny pinching and we now will have more accidents?
Samsung Note 7 comes to mind…

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RollerBoySE wrote:
I too am surprised by the relative scarcity of LiIon accidents. We’ve been using LiIon cells for 20 years and there are billions of devices using them out there.

So why so few accidents (relatively speaking)?

Could it be that quality used to be higher, since there was more money to go around (devices using LiIon used to be pretty expensive)?

Maybe today’s mass market production have gone one step too far in its penny pinching and we now will have more accidents?
Samsung Note 7 comes to mind…

The reason there are so few accidents is because lithium cells are actually quite stable. The difference is that when abused outside of the design parameters (which are pretty extreme in themselves) they have the ability to create flames instead of “just” leaking acid or dying.

As far as the ones you do hear about, first off you will notice the vast majority of those are in custom sized/made battery packs for things like cell phones, not standardized 18650’s.

The reason those tend to have more issues is simply space, they are trying to cram as much power as possible into the tinyiest space possible and with the least weight possible. This combo leads to sacrifices in other areas and those can lead to much larger issues.

It is really the technology race having long ago outpaced lithium technology but there being nothing better to replace it so they just keep pushing it further and further.

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Texas_Ace wrote:
RollerBoySE wrote:
I too am surprised by the relative scarcity of LiIon accidents. We’ve been using LiIon cells for 20 years and there are billions of devices using them out there.

So why so few accidents (relatively speaking)?

Could it be that quality used to be higher, since there was more money to go around (devices using LiIon used to be pretty expensive)?

Maybe today’s mass market production have gone one step too far in its penny pinching and we now will have more accidents?
Samsung Note 7 comes to mind…

The reason there are so few accidents is because lithium cells are actually quite stable. The difference is that when abused outside of the design parameters (which are pretty extreme in themselves) they have the ability to create flames instead of “just” leaking acid or dying.

As far as the ones you do hear about, first off you will notice the vast majority of those are in custom sized/made battery packs for things like cell phones, not standardized 18650’s.

The reason those tend to have more issues is simply space, they are trying to cram as much power as possible into the tinyiest space possible and with the least weight possible. This combo leads to sacrifices in other areas and those can lead to much larger issues.

It is really the technology race having long ago outpaced lithium technology but there being nothing better to replace it so they just keep pushing it further and further.

Two things:

1) It is nevertheless ironic that you don’t hear any accidents with these ***Fire 4×26650 (or 18650 with spacers), 16xXM-L T6 21000 Chinese lumen light for 89 Dollars or something, and these suckers just don’t explode…

2) You all know how long it takes to charge lithium ion right? Ever noticed how quickly your phone charges? Ever notice that your phone gets fairly warm during charging, but your cells in your xtar charger (or any other brand) don’t get that warm at all (0.5A)? Get the feeling they (phone producers) are pushing the boundaries…

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Yep, the pressure to get a heads up on the competition with the already very tough smartphone market has force manufactures to push things WAY past what they should. This usually works out ok, sometimes you get a note 7.

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Texas_Ace wrote:
Yep, the pressure to get a heads up on the competition with the already very tough smartphone market has force manufactures to push things WAY past what they should. This usually works out ok, sometimes you get a note 7.

Lol…that’s why I’ve got a S7 Edge…I got your point though.

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djburkes wrote:
Texas_Ace wrote:
Yep, the pressure to get a heads up on the competition with the already very tough smartphone market has force manufactures to push things WAY past what they should. This usually works out ok, sometimes you get a note 7.

Lol…that’s why I’ve got a S7 Edge…I got your point though.

I’m actually going to be seeking a little wisdom from you as far as buck drivers go. I have two lights that I’m going to mod and each light is going to need a buck since the battery carrier is set up 4S. I’ve never stepped into the 12v realm before…only 3v and 6v and only with fets. However, I’m getting away from fets on these particular mods because of the setup. I’m use to piggybacking on contact boards and other drivers but have come to the realization that the bucks are going to have some kind of heat displacement. Would covering the driver with silicone or another potting material suffice…if it’s being used as a piggyback? Also, where would I get a buck driver that would push 2.5 amps to a XHP35 with an eswitch setup? I’ve got another light with the same setup but it’ll have an XHP50…where would I get a buck driver for it to push it to it’s max? I’ve also already had my ambien so if none of this makes sense, lol, sorry Tired

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