BLF lately is anything *but* Budget!

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BLF-FTW
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BLF lately is anything *but* Budget!

This will sound like a cross between a rant and a troll. It is neither. We the consumers have a lot of the power; no matter what a light supposedly costs, it has no value if no one buys it.

Background: Between here, and that other candle place, and that one other place that's more knives/guns than lights, I've got a good decade of actual forum use and nearly two decades of participating in the purchase, testing, and destruction of said devices. I have many HA-III lights that look like you dug them up from an ancient battlefield. I use and abuse them, not just the EDCs. I put drivers on boards never intended for, directly solder LiIon cells knowing what a no-no it is, and in general I'm just like you - another semi-intelligent monkey with too much free time!

BUT - over the years, many of us have considered doing our own, and in that, I've also figured out exactly what it costs to make them. Especially when we're talking Shenzhen production. I know what OEM runs cost at what volume for whatever pieces of the light you may possibly want. And like many of you, when one of our forum "friends" does a run, it's quite easy to tell it's a stock OEM unit from a certain company, assuming you pay attention to this stuff. A common one everyone knows... iTP goes to Olight Technology Co. Ltd and hey dude aren't you the chairman and running foursevens yourself? Yea, we know. And now the iTP remaining stock is Aimkon and sold by Jim in Durham, NC. They also did another forum member's run or two, like Brian's shiningbeam lights in Brooklyn, NY. Right? (I used those two examples because I think they are both done and just liquidating remaining stock.) We all know this stuff, and if we don't, just spend a few hours reading on the appropriate forums.

But lately the word BUDGET doesn't fit. It's getting crazy. Can I blame international trade, the recession v2.0, converting usd to yuan to hkd or any other currency... yes! For all I know, it's good ol American greed rubbing off on our Chinese friends. Example: I saw a C8 host (no pill, emitter, or driver) for $20usd on one of the more popular sites. Today. Right now. Not kidding. Not $2. $20. It's just insane. We live in a world where I can just open a chat window with Yuki at Shenzhen Trustfire Technology, place an order, watch it go from the bare tubular stock on the racks to a completed and tested batch of lights in less than a month.

WE have to do something to help regulate/control this market from the customer perspective. They're aluminum tubes with a battery and an LED on them. There's so many people trying to take more and more of our money, and WE, of all people, we should be immune to all marketing. What's a gimmick and what's an outright lie and what actually works. How many times have you looked at pics of a head's design, the LED in question with the supposed driver current, and just laugh knowing it's going to reflow the solder in 10 mins? More than once, anyway.

And that's the point: We get it, some aspects of Capitalism sucks. Greed is infectious and it kills. But this is the world as it is - Getting bar stock costs money, running that mill to crosshatch and thread 30 more flashlight bodies costs money, those anodizing tanks smell terrible and cost money... but when one of "us" goes and plunks down ~$1800usd for a run, unless it's a group buy (and I'm still skeptical unless every transaction is disclosed).We know said person will want some profit for his time, we all would. By time I don't mean ordering the lights, I mean setting up a website with a catalog db and ecomm modules, reading/posting on all the forums, taking and uploading photos, answering our inane questions at every hour of the day :-)... and if it's not dropship it's worse -- finding storage space for the units and all the shipping supplies, constant runs to your shipper, keeping the cat fur off the boxes so they look professional, etc.

I'm not saying I begrudge a man who wants to try to make a living at this, or at least make enough to call it a part-time job, I'm saying when I know that damn light didn't cost you $5 much less the $29.95 you're trying to sell it for, it is too much profit! It's offensive. Nevermind the next level where you attempt to sell me a ~$30 light for ~$200, IMO that's not even something that should even be on a site called BudgeLightForum. I guess budget is variable. (That furniture store DesignWithinReach has the same problem, they mean within the reach of Saudi princes and tech startup millionaires.)

And therein lies the issue: I'm not buying your light at $xxx when it's simply not worth it, in terms of product alone. And what really hurts those sellers, is that non-flashlight geeks will hit up the internet before shopping. Guy A is a flashlight enthusiast-in-training, and Guy B just wants a couple lights; for the car, for the junk drawer, for the power outage. Both will buy what was suggested to them, and both will have an idea of value vs. perceived value. Fenix is the biggest of the marketing overload, but you know as the market tightens the literature will get worse. Custom laser etched bamboo storage box? SURE!

Where am I going with this? No f'n idea. Like the Trump protesters who have no idea what they expect to change, but they still got to protest.

I would love if we could go back to the way I thought of BLF in the beginning. We were the CPF rejects, dude you don't need to pay $100 for an excellent light, check out these for $11.49 free shipping!! You/I/We were the broke but addicted flashlight fools. Everyone's welcome to the party. And no one would dare think of posting a favorable review of a $200+ light because you got a comp'd one. No beamshots? No comparison to other lights with that emitter/reflector/driver/battery setup? You would have had people posting turd emojis for days. stink. stinky review. Ew. Some of the reviews in the last few years, by people I previously respected, make me throw up in my mouth a little. We use the word shill here, but it's not just that, the lost (or never had) the hunter aspect, the great find, the "OMG grats on your find these rock I'm ordering 3 now! $11.99? And it blows away my blablab easily!" posts that captured the energy (youth?) of BLF!

But beyond the actual feel and participation of a forum, which admittedly is like wrangling cats, what about at the very least, a "TRUE BLF" forum? Perhaps a subforum on the Commercial Seller's Spot for starters, where no lights can be posted that cost over $20usd or whatever. Deal Alerts kind-of works like that, but I want to get manufacturers & vendors into the spirit of BLF... and I think that by the token of being on a subforum for lower-priced lights, that they know people will look in first (you know, 'they') it will cause price lowering overall. Not a marketing person by any stretch.

 

Whew. I feel better. Thanks for reading.

Edited by: BLF-FTW on 11/14/2016 - 16:28
brted
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Maybe we need a budget lights folder. Shocked

I think all along this forum wasn’t going to kick out talk of more expensive lights, so there is room for everyone. I think some of the lights here are still budget, they are just expensive because they are using multiple emitters and more expensive drivers and optics, not to mention copper this and that. Compare them to name brand stuff and they are cheap. Compare them to a 502B and they are expensive, but you are getting a lot more. I think that’s some of the modding touch where everything is tricked out to maximize performance. That’s a cool part of this forum that I wouldn’t trade. But, yeah, I’m not here to buy a 2000-lumen XHP thrower for $80.

There are still some great cheap lights out there and people get excited about them. The BLF 348 and the A01 are great and cheap. Even the copper version was only $20. And people still rave about Convoy C8’s which you can get for less than $20.

I think budget lights are great for beginners so they can figure out what they like and don’t like without going into debt. But once you kind of know more about what you want, it is okay to spend a little more and get exactly what you want plus some increase in reliability, and that’s kind of where people end up after a few years.

Jerommel
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Quote:
This will sound like a cross between a rant and a troll. It is neither.
It is a rant, trust me. Wink

Quote:
Perhaps a subforum on the Commercial Seller’s Spot for starters, where no lights can be posted that cost over $20usd or whatever.

Good idea i.m.o.

So i agree with some of your points.
Putting the B back in BLF.
I was gone here for 2 years and it has changed.

…or maybe i’ve been buying more expensive lights than before…
But there are few cheap lights being modded to high(er) standards, and indeed, there seems to be less interest in low priced lights.

I don’t know…
Since i’m back i’m running out of money fast lol.

Q

Angler
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First post OP tells everyone that they are paying too much
for what they buy and that the forum needs changes.

The Miller
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Yeah a place for strictly below $20 lights could be good but why not flip it around and have a >$20 section. Deals reviews info releases of all $20+ lights there bam
Would give the real budget lights more attentions and crowd the more expensive ones all ibbthe same spot

CRX
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I vote for Universal Light Forum Wink

StandardBattery
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Defining Budget-Light is very difficult. Few low cost lights are that good, but there are a few gems. The other many people here buy with the intention of modding them, that often ends up costing a fair bit, but they get the fun of making the light they want. An L6 is mostly considered a budget light but it is >$40-50 most of the time, still compared to similar lights I can see it being classified as a budget light. Throwers are dropping in price now though, people seem to have had their fill and now all flood seems to be the new rage for many.

Saying all light over a given price point should be segregated might work, but I think they level would need to be closer to $50. Again, good value, and low price though can make any hard price very arbitrary, not to mention just general price fluctuations. I’m happy there are less $5 10 LED 3-AAA lights, they might be low cost but mostly not worth it.

All that said, I’m new here and I’ve been known to buy a couple expensive lights.

hIKARInoob
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I joined BLF because of the more appealing vibe and in-depth technical discussions compared to CPF. The only budget lights I have and use are my Skyray Kings. Generally I prefer more expensive lights like Noctigon and Thrunite. I just like the vibe here ;-).

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Budget light forum? More like modding light forum. I’m not here for the cheap stuff. I’m here because it’s where the smart people are and where the coolest stuff is getting done. I don’t think I’m alone in that. Yes there’s room for all sorts here and I think the forum does a great job of encouraging all that, but the interesting stuff is going to get the most action, so that’s what “floats to the top”.

will34
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FYI most of the price you see on these websites are inflated, or as they like to call it “MSRP”. Since most people don’t frequent forums or have access to discount codes they are forced to deal with the MAP. $20 for a C8 host is outrageous when the whole light can be found for less than that.. last time I bought a C8 host it was less than $12.

Jerommel
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CRX wrote:
I vote for Universal Light Forum Wink

I think we should keep it terrestrial. Steve

Q

bugsy36
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I have not posted in a while but I have been trying to keep up.

First, it does not matter who the OP is. "His/Her" point is valid one to the same Wink

Second, I think PD68 hit it spot on. To paraphrase.....it is boredom. How much can a person to to a C8 that has not been done over and over already? A couple of years ago breaking the 1000 Lm mark was a big deal. Today that happens with a lights running on 14500's !

I think that the budget lights are still there but not often spoken of by newer people and even then when they get bitten they all want that crazy stuff that makes people look at us funny.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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JockRobbins
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Well – how about do something about it with your “vast experience” and help kick-off our budget-priced GT project, instead of kicking off on a forum no-one forced you to join/take notice of.

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I’ve read this forum on-and-off since the early days and it’s definitely not as “budget” as it used to be.

You can’t blame the manufacturers for chasing the higher end, there’s so much more profit in making a more desirable item.

jl1
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I totally understand OP’s rant. The reason is likely because of the demographics. Most of us are initially still in the “third world” where USD $20 is 1-3 days worth of work. But as more Americans and Western Europeans participate, where USD $20 is a mere hourly wage for even the minimum wage slaves, prices of what is deemed acceptable creep up.

Ouchyfoot
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There are still a lot of budget lights out there, a lot of them are still unchanged from the early days of this forum, but we’ve learned so much in a very short time.

The main problems are te parts we use to mod our budget lights with. We’ve come a long way with emitters, drivers, optics and MCPCBs which are starting to become quite costly. We can still mod those really cheap hosts, but when you start thinking about the money you’ve put out for the parts you start to wonder if it’s really worth it to instal them in that really cheap host, so you invest an extra $10 for a higher quality host. Things add up.

We used to be happy with AA lights, but now we crave the juice of liions. Non DTP stars…I don’t think so. 0.8A at the tail…mostly no. Hmmmm. I better pick up one of those custom copper pills. Ahhhh yes.

Even the Chinese are picking up on what we really want (and stealing our ideas and inventions), and that increases the cost. No one wants an underpowered next mode memory driver pushing an outdated green tinged emitter anymore, but that’s what we used to buy and do a simple emitter swap and stack two chips onto a nanjg driver.

We can still do all that, cheap too, but we’ve come too far and can never be happy de-evolving.
Basically…been there, done that. Now we’re setting out to seek and explore new planets, I mean new technology and techniques.

Joshk
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Maybe a folder is good… but there’s nothing very interesting about a $20 light. How much can you talk about that? And I assume modding it to over $20 would defeat the principal, so yea. Boring.

Jerommel
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jl1 wrote:
I totally understand OP’s rant. The reason is likely because of the demographics. Most of us are initially still in the “third world” where USD $20 is 1-3 days worth of work. But as more Americans and Western Europeans participate, where USD $20 is a mere hourly wage for even the minimum wage slaves, prices of what is deemed acceptable creep up.

I’m in W. Europe and i’m rather poor too.
$20/hour netto is not minimum wage either.
I think it’s maybe different kind of people that get attracted to nowadays stock Lumen canons.
Spend money, wait for delivery and go: WHOA!

I don’t know…

Q

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CRX wrote:
I vote for Universal Light Forum Wink

Indeed, we are the brightest light forum in the (known) universe
I like how TPB used to say the most stable tracker in the galaxy, technically they are correct, until others are proven we don’t know they could exist

Besides, the whole Galaxy’s a stage (not world Silly )

The Journal of Alternative Facts TM

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of alternative facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists"

 

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1. I think that any attempt to separate threads by the cost of the lights is not a good idea.
2. Although I rarely buy a light over $30 I like the option to, eg the Q8.
3. I will never dedome an led or mod a light any more than the basics, I really enjoy all the custom light threads. I am also patient and know that as technology moves forward I will be given an opportunity to buy awesome lights that are a generation behind for “budget” prices that barely cover the original parts to say nothing of the labor.

I look over the array of flashlights that cover all available surface area of nightstands, desks, and counters in my home and can remember when I bought them, some a long time ago. I guess what I am saying is I like things the way it is and am constantly in awe of the really talented and motivated folks here every day.

ken

KawiBoy1428
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Huh one thing that hasn’t changed, BLF is the BEST FLASHLIGHT FORUM AROUND…………..PERIOD! Thumbs Up

It’s just a Flashlight Forum, a Hobby or is this all you have in your life? Facepalm

Change is Inevitable nothing is going to change that….

KB1428 “Live Life WOT”

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If you look on WTS in CFP there are so many lights at 200-500$ or more.

If you look at lights for 50-60$ they still ovver a great value and many consider them still budget.

If someone wants to spend only 10$ to an XML2 light he can get it as well from C8 copies or Meco Zoomies.

If someone wants a light for 100-200€ with very specific features he wants then he gets lights recommended in that price range as well cheaper lights.

The forum should consider all lights budget as people have a different understanding what is budget.

I am willing to pay up to 60€ and consider it budget, while others consider budget 5$, important is to get value for the price you pay.

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Budget doesn't only mean cheap.

It also means a set amount of money. No indication of what amount.

Technically you can spend $10000 on a flashlight, and it's still a budget flashlight.

Just a $10k budget.

Bort
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Enderman wrote:

Technically you can spend $10000 on a flashlight, and it’s still a budget flashlight.


Just a $10k budget.


I want this budget, anyone feeling generous?

The Journal of Alternative Facts TM

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of alternative facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists"

 

dbare
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I have been here for four+ years. When I joined, I new nothing of lithium powered lights and was totally amazed at the output and range of lights costing 10 USD and less. Believe it or not, there are still “budget” lights that cast a strong beam even at the original price (501b) etc. still available. What is different is technology is advancing rapidly. I recently took a year or so off and just happened to check back in. WOW! I couldn’t believe the advances. Now I can get a 14500 light less than four inches in length producing 500+ to 1400 lumens. Yes the price has increased, but it is worth it. Since I came back a few month ago I have purchased way too many lights. What can I say? Today, I purchased my third Klarus Mi7, this one for $19.00. To me, this light as well as many others are true budget lights.

Now recently, I see group buys for lights $100 or higher. I am not interested in those, but some are – OK by me. There are many exceptional lights at far lower prices in my opinion, and they are discussed and reviewed here. Actually, I have seen sub $10 lights discussed here recently. In any event, I think we are still in “budget” mode although possibly at a bit higher cost. It’s called time and progress.

signed, happy camper

/dbare

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Bort wrote:
Enderman wrote:

Technically you can spend $10000 on a flashlight, and it’s still a budget flashlight.


Just a $10k budget.

I want this budget, anyone feeling generous?

Depends how bad you want it. You can sell a testicle for $50,000 then you’d have your 10k budget easy. You can sell one to science and they will put a metal one in there so it still looks like you have two. And then you can say you have balls of steel. If I was older and completely on test replacement therapy I’d consider it

2/9 Fox Co (2009-2015) Semper Fi 0311/0331 Rifleman/Machine Gunner
Blf has changed a lot since I've been here. Lots of snow flakes and easily offended over nothing. When the forum use to be great and people joked around and could take a joke. It's a forum it's not that serious. Let's make BLF great again!

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The problem is – and the reason I shy away from most budget stuff these days – is because of the hit-or-miss build quality. You just can’t depend on getting a good $40 light very often, or recommending one to someone else while having confidence that what they get will be as good as my unit. You are limited to a select few brands.

For some reason, it took me years to find that out. The clone is never better than the real thing. Get the real deal and you come away with more.

Eat Once a Day - Lose Weight - Feel Great!

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Bort
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Speed4goal wrote:
Bort wrote:
Enderman wrote:

Technically you can spend $10000 on a flashlight, and it’s still a budget flashlight.


Just a $10k budget.

I want this budget, anyone feeling generous?

Depends how bad you want it. You can sell a testicle for $50,000 then you’d have your 10k budget easy. You can sell one to science and they will put a metal one in there so it still looks like you have two. And then you can say you have balls of steel. If I was older and completely on test replacement therapy I’d consider it


Man, i thought kidneys were valuable, 50k for a testicle huh, whats a kidney or heart worth?

The Journal of Alternative Facts TM

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of alternative facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists"

 

SawMaster
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IMHO budget doesn’t mean “cheap” as much as it means “good value” and there are plenty of those here in stock form and via modding. I read a huge amount of old posts before joining and yes, there’s a difference today. No longer do people get ecstatic over a $5 light because there are better lights and better deals to be had. And there’s many good stock lights now unlike in the past. Some of the deals we’ve seen here are as much as 50% less than the actual price you can buy or build that kind of light for; how can that not be “budget”? Look at the M24X2 GB and price it against any comparable light. Ditto for the CooYoo Qyantum when it arrived on the scene. And where can you best the Q8 The Miller is doing for us at a price of $40?

What BLF is today is great knowledge, great people, and a great attitude. That hasn’t changed and I hope it never does. Sorry that somebody has a problem with the rest of it- perhaps if they’d looked for the good things they would feel differently Wink

Phil

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I started out on CPF when I jumped into the light scene. I quickly figured out that most of the people there were less than friendly and some were flat out rude…especially when a new person would ask a question. I was really curious about modding lights because that’s all I would read about but it wasn’t about actually doing the modding…it was about buying the already modded lights from so and so. A few months later I stumbled into this nuthouse and I’ve been here every since. Everyone seems to be fairly friendly and seem to enjoy sharing their eye scorching skills. I knew nothing about flashlights before I joined BLF…I had a Streamlight Protac HL (CR123A Vampire) and my wife bought me a Fenix LD60 for my birthday shortly after joining CPF. I still peek in over there every month or two but I tend to stay here. To me…it’s not about finding the cheapest light. It’s about finding a light that you like and then upgrade it by about 300%! I Love you guys.

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KawiBoy1428 wrote:
Huh one thing that hasn't changed, BLF is the BEST FLASHLIGHT FORUM AROUND..............PERIOD! Thumbs Up p. It's just a Flashlight Forum, a Hobby or is this all you have in your life? Facepalm p. Change is Inevitable nothing is going to change that....

 

Yep! You've got that right! Wink

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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