[Update]Wurkkos dual LEDs 21700 Headlamp design Photos/UI update~

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Wurkkos
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hmm, After check with the engineer, XPL-HI may not suit for the optics use now, the first version may keep SST20 and LH351D for saving times. they have many projects in hand to process.

adam7027
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Lux-Perpetua wrote:

I don't think anyone has ever used LH351C yet but their specs look promising.

Hello Lux-Perpetua,

Please, let me reference this review, which maukka did. Based on this, LH351C could be perfect, where total power is of smaller priority (e.g. headlamps). His graph suggest, that the sweet spot with this emitter is at 3.0-3.3A, producing 950-1000lm (and all of this at CRI 90), which is plenty enough, if we think about the current use case (just be sure to get the highest possible performance bin, as maukka did).

I think, it should be relatively easily sourced, because Wurkkos has already access to LH351D. 

Also, XPL-HI has higher Vf than LH351C, which means, maximum output will decrease relatively early, while draining the battery (but the difference is not that big).

And please, read this, which is a comment by maukka about beam and optics.

So, this emitter could open up some possibilities with small to mid sized throwy flashlights/headlamps (5000K and 5700K options to cover the range, which is not covered by SST-20 high CRI)

+1: LH351C is completely bargain priced compared to XP-L HI

On the other side, it is still not really throwy, but much better than LH351D in this regard.

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Thanks a lot for the interesting summary about LH351C, adam7027. Maybe there's a chance that Sofirn will try testing this LED. The important step to make is that they would need to order it in a reasonable amount and use it for more than only one flashlight. Moreover, they would need to check if it's available at all. The only Samsung LED they were able to source so far was LH351D 5.000K 90CRI. I wish they were able to source at least 4.000K, too. I have some lights here with LH351D 4.000K 70CRI and - to my surprise - their beam quality looks nowhere greenish at all. The 70CRI's efficiency gets close to XP-L2 but with a much better tint in a reflector with less artifacts.

Anyway, without wishing to anticipate the odds look good that Sofirn will do their best to implement the draft UI illustrated in this thread.

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Tom E wrote:

Serifus wrote:
For the UI why not use anduril? It has a verry nice way of handeling 2 led channels, and would be a selling point to everyone familiar with it. putting anduril on it would probably tip me personally into buying it.

Exactly how is that? Implemented on what light? All I know of is tint blending on the LT1.


 


Sofirn is working on more Anduril lights, so I don’t see a big problem in using an FSM compatible driver.

I am indeed refrencing the tint ramping from the lt1, and honestly would find that far more preferable. The idea of being able to blend flood, and throw, and then have it remeber it for that brightness would be a wonderfull thing, and tbh, if this doesnt go that route, i might just build something that does that myself.

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Lux-Perpetua wrote:

BurningPlayd0h wrote:
If a hold from turbo drops back into lower modes IMHO that is intuitive and easy enough to access and consistent with many other lights.

Interesting idea. What lights use this kind of operation for example? How about the other way around….hold from turbo to turn off? Anyway, Mark is now sending the draft in post #118 to Sofirn for further evaluation.

Thunite and Olight UIs both do this, as well an Anuduril/Narsil lights (they ramp down instead of starting the mode cycle). Wurkkos FC11 ramps down from turbo on hold as well, and I believe it’s how the Sofirn side-switch lights other than the SP10S operate as well.

It doesn’t return you to the previous brightness (if you go from on to turbo) but starts the mode cycle at the lowest non-moonlight mode and cycles up until you release.

For me personally not turning off from a single click in any setting is a downside for any light. Having to click, wait, then click again to turn off from turbo on my YLP Unicorn (because I forget to use the weird click+hold for off shortcut that only works in turbo) mars an otherwise fantastic UI.

I would not be upset with a 70 or 80 CRI Samsung emitter for the “spot” function. It cannot have worse tint/rainbow than XP-L2 and probably not SST-20 5000K either. SST-20 5K should be fine too, still much better beam and tint than the XP-G3 many other lights with the spot/flood combo are using.

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Lux-Perpetua wrote:

I have urged Wurkkos to put extra care on a good and reliable headstrap/headband to properly support the weight of this light. A magnetic tailcap would surely be a nice add on but it will also increase HD20’s weight. So, maybe they can sell a magnetic tailcap individually or put both versions (magnetic/non-magnetic) in the retail box. A big benefit would be a tailcap design that fits to more Sofirn/Wurkkos 21700 lights.

Wide bands are so comfy.

AEDe
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Also the bigger holder the better.

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…..yes, that is the point about size and weight when we decide to use a 21700, for a input and output 21700 with more power and runtime…
Power and runtime depend on much more factors. For example from driver efficiency. So what kind of driver you will use?

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As far as I was told, HD20's driver will use FET. The charging currents are 2A (recharging battery) and 1A (reverse charging from battery to external device). Please note that this is yet to be confirmed by Wurkkos/Sofirn.

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Fet!? For 1500lm? I don’t think it is good idea. Buck or at least linear driver is needed here.

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Thank you for all suggestion for HD20 and thank you Lux-perpetua to collect all information. And finally we have confirm the UI and the LEDs

Spotlight—Cree XPL 5000K
Floodlight—LH351D 5000K 90CRI

UI details (except the raming mode)

MoreLumens
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Yes, works for my taste! Cant wait to see this light. Thumbs Up

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Agree with AEDe

as it is basically Sofirn, why dont take driver construction from C8G?  21700, step+stepless, full stabilization - great driver

   

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I like the choice of LEDs and the UI, I also like the design of the flashlight, I would like to be made in dark gray.

I know that there are flashlights that are regulated, and others that are not. I would be very interested if this flashlight had a good regulation. To give a good example, the Nitecore HC35 is capable of keeping 800 lumens totally stable for almost 4 hours straight with a 5000mah 21700, I would love for this Wukkos to do something similar. If this have a good regulation and a good price, No doubt, i would buy it.

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Miguel_79 wrote:
I like the choice of LEDs and the UI, I also like the design of the flashlight, I would like to be made in dark gray.

I know that there are flashlights that are regulated, and others that are not. I would be very interested if this flashlight had a good regulation. To give a good example, the Nitecore HC35 is capable of keeping 800 lumens totally stable for almost 4 hours straight with a 5000mah 21700, I would love for this Wukkos to do something similar. If this have a good regulation and a good price, No doubt, i would buy it.

Yeah I would love to see green color, but all earthy shades work for me.
I hope leds are easy to swap and good regulation is maybe the most important aspect these days. Not a problem if that would raise the cost because that would seal the deal for me. No idea what the price will be, but I would easily pay 50€ if regulation works well.

What driver they will use is the biggest question right now. Hope we get answer to that question soon. Really hyped about this light.

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Narmattaru wrote:

Agree with AEDe

as it is basically Sofirn, why dont take driver construction from C8G?  21700, step+stepless, full stabilization - great driver

Not sure if the C8G driver is appropriate here. It is designed to drive a 12V XHP35 HI emitter. The first batch I tested had a rather mediocre ramping curve when increasing the brightness. The current applied to the XHP35 HI was about 1.7A only, leaving a lot of potential unused. Moreover, thermal regulation acted way too early on this light. Fortunately, both Wurkkos and Sofirn have agreed to raise the thermal threshold for HD20 to 55°C in return for better performance/longer runtimes on Turbo/High mode. As far as I was told HD20 will be using an FET driver, i.e. no boost driver with full stabilization.

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What do you mean

Lux-Perpetua wrote:
an FET driver
? Linear driver + DD? Linear driver based on FET?
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AEDe wrote:
What do you mean
Lux-Perpetua wrote:
an FET driver
? Linear driver + DD? Linear driver based on FET?

Many of the Sofirn lights + Wurkkos FC11 use a CC linear driver AFAIK.

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Like SP40? Cheap and good light, but yeah driver could be way better even if that would increase the cost. Not sure how much that would actually increase the cost? 5€? 10€?

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I would also prefer to pay more and have good regulation.

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I’ll take CC linear running on a FET + sense resistor or similar over PWM’ed linear chips any day as long as there is a sub-lumen mode.

Once a cells voltage under load drops below the Vf of your chosen output it will drop anyway. Only a sufficiently low Vf emitter and buck driver, or boost/buck-boost will achieve what I see so many in this community call “regulation”.

If a flashlight has any electronics that control the flow of electricity in at least one mode, it is “regulated”.

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Behaviour of fc11 driver
There is no stabilisation at all.
As I understand in Hd20 will be the same ugliness.

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AEDe wrote:
Behaviour of fc11 driver
There is no stabilisation at all.
As I understand in Hd20 will be the same ugliness.

the factory engineer said the space of Program is too small so have to use a FET driver, i am not sure Facepalm
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AEDe wrote:
Behaviour of fc11 driver There is no stabilisation at all. As I understand in Hd20 will be the same ugliness.

I don’t really understand the benefit of defined steps to lower modes when cell voltage drops vs this. Either has the same end result of higher modes losing max output as the cell drains, its why I choose lights with boost drivers whenever possible… because that or multi-cell + buck are the only ways to avoid it.

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Well that graph is a bit deceptive:

  1. the drain down to 2.65V is excessive. Most of our firmware triggers LVP at around 3.2 - 3.0V. Looks like this light has no LVP
  2. 3.4V down to 3.0V is a significant drop, > 50%. If you look at a normal drain from 4.2V down to 3.4V, the lumens drops in half. That's about right, and matches what many lights use as "Turbo" to "High". 3.4V to 3.0V is a small percentage of the cell range and happens quickly - refer to discharge curves
  3. lower modes are typically in the 1-500 range anyway, still quite relevant. Also lower modes could be using a low channel having better efficiency that the FET shown in the graph

This graph is typical of most of our FET based drivers running on only the full max FET.

 

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BurningPlayd0h wrote:
I don’t really understand the benefit of defined steps to lower modes when cell voltage drops vs this. Either has the same end result of higher modes losing max output as the cell drains, its why I choose lights with boost drivers whenever possible… because that or multi-cell + buck are the only ways to avoid it.

When I turn on 100 lm mode I need 100lm during discharge, and then light should give me know that battery low without turn off.
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Tom E wrote:

Well that graph is a bit deceptive:


I see no deceptiveness. I know that in real light will be hint of “stabilization” due to discharge curve of li-ion.
But yes it is classic ugly fet.
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AEDe wrote:
BurningPlayd0h wrote:
I don’t really understand the benefit of defined steps to lower modes when cell voltage drops vs this. Either has the same end result of higher modes losing max output as the cell drains, its why I choose lights with boost drivers whenever possible… because that or multi-cell + buck are the only ways to avoid it.
When I turn on 100 lm mode I need 100lm during discharge, and then light should give me know that battery low without turn off.

This chart does not show that the light will do that before the battery is extremely low. You’d need a runtime chart of that lower mode to see if it drops proportionally over a discharge cycle. In Maukka’s test Vf for 100lm from a 90CRI LH351D is only 2.7V.

Again, the only lights that can sustain brightness like that are those with boost drivers, or multiple cells (with combined voltage exceeding emitter VF) + a buck driver. As soon as the voltage at the emitter drops below the Vf required for a given output, that output will start to decrease. This happens with lights that have an extra 7135 channel for low modes as well since they also cannot step-up voltage.

AEDe wrote:
Tom E wrote:

Well that graph is a bit deceptive:

I see no deceptiveness. I know that in real light will be hint of “stabilization” due to discharge curve of li-ion.

What are some of the “real lights” that don’t have a drop in output like the graph you posted? What type of alternative driver would you propose for this light?

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I think the contentious point is using either linear drivers or FET + sense resistor, vs just PWMing a FET.

The former will probably have constant output (smoother with no PWM, and constant current/lumens), vs just having a fraction of max output (FET-DDed LED crowbarred across the ever-decreasing cell voltage).

It’s switching the light on medium for 600lm across most of the cell’s SOC, vs 800…750…700…650… etc. lm as the cell drains.

Did I mansplain that about right? LOL

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

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Lightbringer wrote:
I think the contentious point is using either linear drivers or FET + sense resistor, vs just PWMing a FET.

The former will probably have constant output (smoother with no PWM, and constant current/lumens), vs just having a fraction of max output (FET-DDed LED crowbarred across the ever-decreasing cell voltage).

It’s switching the light on medium for 600lm across most of the cell’s SOC, vs 800…750…700…650… etc. lm as the cell drains.

Did I mansplain that about right? LOL

Oh, good point. I was under the impression that most of the single-cell, 3V emitter Sofirn and Wurkkos lights use CC, not PWM’ed FET so that’s what I’m assuming is planned for this light.

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