Imalent MS18 with 100,000Lumen and R90TS with 36,000Lumen

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JasonWW
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BlueSwordM wrote:

I mean, if they really wanted to sustain very high lumen levels in such a large head, rather than making a big heatsink with a lot of thermal mass, they should make a CPU type heatsink with tons of fins.

CPU heatsink you say?


.

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LouieAtienza
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I built a spotlight not long ago using a Fresnel lens, and an Osram White Flat 2mm^2 LED, mounted to a 90mm dia. x 50mm thick aluminum heatsink, actively cooled with a 12V fan pulling fresh air through the fins, and exhausting out the back. I’ve pumped a max 34W into that LED and you can feel the warm air coming through the exhaust end, even in the cold winter here. I can’t imagine a smaller heatsink and fan dissipating 20-30 times that power – just to squeeze out another 5 seconds of turbo time?

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I’ll stick with the GT4 over the Imalent R90ts. With 18 LEDs I don’t see how those tiny reflectors will be deep enough to throw 2000 meters. And with the qc issues Imalent has had, not to mention the grossly exaggerated output numbers, I just don’t feel like I would get what I’m paying for. I don’t care if it’s a million lumens. Doesn’t matter if it doesn’t work.

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BlueSwordM wrote:
I

The problem is that R&D takes time. A lot of it. Which is why it’s expensive, and why BLF lights take such a long time to make.

Did I mention 10% of my company sale went for new machinery and RandD? I could of just pocketed that and let the company rot away. Maybe even a few bank con jobs along the way.

As an engineer, I paid nothing for the actual engineering, but prototypes, trips to see machinery capabilities, making/modifying machinery, sending samples to customers, material testing…..it’s expensive and chances are, the market won’t buy it.

It’s not surprising that most of the products out there are copies, or copies with a bit of a change. The vast majority are styling exercises. True usability/efficiency breakthroughs are not as common as they appear considering the size of the market.

Then there are the copy cats, mostly foreign and out ovf the reach of lawyers, that will suck away all the innovators hard work. And the retailers who don’t give a damn if some cut rate foreign company copied your product, as long as it was cheaper to them and more profitable.

Yeah, I have a chip on my shoulder about this…anywho, back to 1 million lumen flashlights.

Moses came from the mountaintop carrying a tablet. The Words were....WITH GREAT LUMENS COMES GREAT REPONSIBILITY.

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LouieAtienza wrote:
I built a spotlight not long ago using a Fresnel lens, and an Osram White Flat 2mm^2 LED, mounted to a 90mm dia. x 50mm thick aluminum heatsink, actively cooled with a 12V fan pulling fresh air through the fins, and exhausting out the back. I’ve pumped a max 34W into that LED and you can feel the warm air coming through the exhaust end, even in the cold winter here. I can’t imagine a smaller heatsink and fan dissipating 20-30 times that power – just to squeeze out another 5 seconds of turbo time?

Do you know that CPUs are in the 150 watt range? Some way higher. Yet they can run continuously with their fans on.

CPU fins and fans are available in surplus stores.

Any discussion on output sustainability and very high power lights has to start with fins and fans.

Moses came from the mountaintop carrying a tablet. The Words were....WITH GREAT LUMENS COMES GREAT REPONSIBILITY.

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LouieAtienza wrote:

You don’t need hundreds of CFM because the body has surface area too. Manufacturers could easily make an extrusion with internal fins, exponentially increasing surface area. They could also add through holes to allow heat pipes from the head. There’s no rules stating that one must hold a flashlight from its body; a separate, ergonomic handle would be great – you can make it adjustable, and you can hook the handle onto your belt or backpack strap. And with the ginormous head this thing has, an external handle could have a more forward design, which would make the light balance better on the hand, instead of being head-heavy. You can have the handle mount to a t-slot in the extrusion, which would make it adjustable, and able to mount the light to whatever you want. And thus, you don’t have to think of the body as having to be round.

Ummm….you need the cfm to push the air through the fins. Passive or low air volume is not enough in close spaced fins. That is why CPUs have fans. Noisy fans.

But otherwise, keep going…..you’re heading in the right direction. Forget the body, work the head. Lol

Moses came from the mountaintop carrying a tablet. The Words were....WITH GREAT LUMENS COMES GREAT REPONSIBILITY.

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i was actually wondering: how mature will these lights be?

 

I know Acebeam takes many months before a light gets into production, but Imalent

seems to add them almost by the week....

 

That worries me a bit.

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Im more curious all the legal stuff, can they get away with this, imean just looking the numbers if we asume its real, is there no limit for lights and how much lumens they are allowed to have? I also think on highest whatever the lumens it will pull u will probably get blinded on the ground just pointing the light , saw the same thing with acbeams x70 so much light goes into the ground and bounces back into your own eyes…. cant see how the max output will be high just a very brief moment :…

weird it has less intake holes then ms12 if that design will be final, looks weird that head is supposed to handle 1300w of power…

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mortuus wrote:
I’m more curious all the legal stuff, can they get away with this, I mean just looking the numbers if we asume its real, is there no limit for lights and how much lumens they are allowed to have?

No limit at all, why would there be? Maybe the Swedish government is a bit too “hands on”?

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mortuus
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no i mean shipping them worldwide, really no regulations shipping furnace lights at all with serious flaws ?

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mortuus wrote:
no i mean shipping them worldwide, really no regulations shipping furnace lights at all with serious flaws ?

Well, the batteries are fully contained in a metal housing. I think that’s the big thing with shipping batteries out of China. Some stores in China, BG, GB, AE, seem to be able to ship batteries in plastic cases. I’m not sure on the legality of that.

As far as flashlights, Customs doesn’t know if a certain brand flashlight is reliable or not. I’ve heard of zero cases of batteries combusting in Imalent lights.

The 2000 lumen GT uses 8 cells, the 100,000 lumen MS18 uses 8 cells. No big difference to Customs, really.

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all that hatred and bashing does make some people here look like trolls...

please stay fair and constructive! 

help us paint the picture about problems in the past from your own experience.

if 10 people say "I know their leds burnt in the DX80" and those 10 speak about the one guy who posted his personal experience we tend to think it's 11 dead lights Wink 

 

I am sure if I took a Koenigsegg for the daily duties I ask from my Fiat Tipo it would break sooner than it should. (NO - I have no Koenigsegg Wink

but for driving sportive if there is a hour available and sometimes on the track the koenigseck will definitely be the much more pleasant choice!

 

also I love to hear from people who had problems with their R90C, R70c, RT35 and RT70 - imho Imalent tries hard to improve. 

 

or is there another reason why crowds with pitchforks and torches ( Big Smile ) are rolling thru the forums every time when a few brands are on topic? 

 

 

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first video 

seems the cooling has improved 

PLEASE NOTE
i do not work in "reviews, deals and codes" for the time being
maybe M4D M4X will return one day, but until then:

THANK YOU FOR YEARS OF YOUR SUPPORT AND FRIENDLY CONTACTS!

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I have the Imalent DX80 for about a year. The second version. I bought from the EU warehouse for $ 216. For now it works perfectly. Just like HR20, DN70 and DM21T.

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No complaints about the MS12 battery pack, from what i can tell its genuine Sanyo 20700, admittedly I am only going off the wrap colour lol.

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M4D M4X wrote:

first video 


seems the cooling has improved 



It looks like they’re using a single 30mm to 40mm radial fan. They also made it easily accessible by 2 external screws. This should make it easier to clean dust as well as to replace a fan that gets damaged or stops working.

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Notice that Imalent is using non-anodized shoulder strap attachment points on the body and tail. Most manufacturers don’t so you scratch up the body; I’m glad someone is finally doing it right.

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Spartan wrote:
LouieAtienza wrote:
I built a spotlight not long ago using a Fresnel lens, and an Osram White Flat 2mm^2 LED, mounted to a 90mm dia. x 50mm thick aluminum heatsink, actively cooled with a 12V fan pulling fresh air through the fins, and exhausting out the back. I’ve pumped a max 34W into that LED and you can feel the warm air coming through the exhaust end, even in the cold winter here. I can’t imagine a smaller heatsink and fan dissipating 20-30 times that power – just to squeeze out another 5 seconds of turbo time?

Do you know that CPUs are in the 150 watt range? Some way higher. Yet they can run continuously with their fans on.

CPU fins and fans are available in surplus stores.

Any discussion on output sustainability and very high power lights has to start with fins and fans.

The heat sink I describe is finned… It is not a new idea to use a CPU heatsink for a LED; many folks do it here, even I used one for a COB light project.

But think how large a heatsink for just a 100W CPU is.

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M4D M4X wrote:

all that hatred and bashing does make some people here look like trolls…


please stay fair and constructive! 


help us paint the picture about problems in the past from your own experience.


if 10 people say “I know their leds burnt in the DX80” and those 10 speak about the one guy who posted his personal experience we tend to think it’s 11 dead lights Wink 


 


I am sure if I took a Koenigsegg for the daily duties I ask from my Fiat Tipo it would break sooner than it should. (NO – I have no Koenigsegg Wink


but for driving sportive if there is a hour available and sometimes on the track the koenigseck will definitely be the much more pleasant choice!


 


also I love to hear from people who had problems with their R90C, R70c, RT35 and RT70 – imho Imalent tries hard to improve. 


 


or is there another reason why crowds with pitchforks and torches ( Big Smile ) are rolling thru the forums every time when a few brands are on topic? 


 


 

I was under the impression this was an open forum for the good and the bad. Everything I have seen mentioned on the negative spectrum has been true. If it is “trolling” to give an honest opinion about a product, it certainly must be the ultimate “troll” to market a light as xxx amount of lumens when really it doesn’t reach that mark or come close. If a company doesn’t want to be called out for advertising false numbers, they shouldn’t advertise their products with an increase in output that doesn’t exist.Same goes for fairness. It’s not fair to the consumer who purchases anything and only gets 75% of what is promised. Would you buy that fiat if it only came with 3 wheels and delivered 75% of the horsepower?

However, that does not mean they don’t make bright powerful lights. They absolutely do, their lights are impressive and I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise.

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M4D M4X wrote:

all that hatred and bashing does make some people here look like trolls…


please stay fair and constructive! 


help us paint the picture about problems in the past from your own experience.


if 10 people say “I know their leds burnt in the DX80” and those 10 speak about the one guy who posted his personal experience we tend to think it’s 11 dead lights Wink 


 


I am sure if I took a Koenigsegg for the daily duties I ask from my Fiat Tipo it would break sooner than it should. (NO – I have no Koenigsegg Wink


but for driving sportive if there is a hour available and sometimes on the track the koenigseck will definitely be the much more pleasant choice!


 


also I love to hear from people who had problems with their R90C, R70c, RT35 and RT70 – imho Imalent tries hard to improve. 


 


or is there another reason why crowds with pitchforks and torches ( Big Smile ) are rolling thru the forums every time when a few brands are on topic? 


 


 

Martin It just so happens that we’re talking about an Imalent light here but I think there’s a growing consensus that’s getting a little tired of marketing hyperbolae… Now if a light was marketed as having a sustained 36k lumens, with a 100k lumen boost mode, I’d find that impressive. But I have my doubts it could even sustain 36k for an appreciable amount of time. Don’t get me wrong; I’m cool with turbo and I personally don’t need it for extended times.

I think if Christian von Koenigsegg says his car will produce 1100bhp, you can be assure it will. But it’s a 7-figure price of entry.

This more or less is the same marketing used in the DIY automation industry, as far as steppers and servos are concerned. Servos have a rated continuous power and RPM. Steppers are rated at their stall torque, which is the highest torque the stepper can produce. But that’s at stand still at full current. But most modern stepper drives decrease current at stand still to reduce heat, thus the torque is reduced. And larger steppers have a faster drop in torque at speed than smaller steppers. So many newbies buy steppers based on their stall torque only not looking at a torque/speed graph and wonder why they have ill-performing machines. Doesn’t stop the manufactures from duping the uninformed.

Here it’s exactly the same. For those that know this is at best a 7000-8000 lumen flashlight with an insane 100k lumen turbo, they’ll be happy. For a newbie enthusiast that thinks they’re getting a 100k lumen light, well there’s going to be a lot of disappointment.

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My DX80 is one of my favorite lights and likely always will be. I had suspected until yesterday that it had one of the best available sustained outputs. My suspicions were confirmed when I saw the results compared to the X65. 6000 lumen output until battery exhaustion is the best passive cooling sustained output flashlight.

Imalent initially launched a botched product, incurred massive expenses recalling all units and completely re-designing the head. The resulting re-design turned out to be one of the best flashlights ever. I hoped that they’d learned from their mistakes and it seems like they did as I haven’t seen a whole lot of complaints coming from the MS12.

The most disappointing thing was when I learned about how significantly they overstated the actual output of the MS12 and R90C. Imalents DN70 flagship had an extremely high amount of issues, their next flagship the DX80 was a total recall, their next flagship the MS12 appears to finally be of good quality and this is when a brand wrought with controversy decided to begin massively overstating their products performance results.

I love my DX80, I love the price I paid and I do genuinely like Imalent and hope they succeed. I just can’t understand why they keep purposefully destroying their reputation!

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I’m sure guys Martin gets your point, he’s asking for one thread without quickly devolving into thread crapping. He’s made it very clear that he disagrees with you that all opinions so far have been fair and constructive. As an example, Skylumen/Vinh was brought up in this thread to compare to the MS18 output by a friend of Vinhs who appears IMO to shill for him every chance they get. I have had multiple poor experiences with Skylumen, they’re no longer even on my radar, and so have others, but there are times to mention that, not every single time he comes out with something. I didn’t post once in Vinh’s “introductory” thread over here, only in threads relevant to lights where I had a personal experience. I own an Imalent R90C and I have compared it and disagree with those who say it can’t hit the numbers it claims. If you felt the need to defend yourself, that should tell you something, and if you’re that wary, stay away until after the reviews and let the newbies do their own research and make up their own minds, I mean it didn’t even hit the streets yet.

Nokoff..still Made in China 山寨主義

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nokoff wrote:

I own an Imalent R90C and I have compared it and disagree with those who say it can’t hit the numbers it claims.

For 9 emitters to produce 20,000 lumen each one has to put out 2,222 lumen (OTF). The best XHP35-HI with plenty of power behind it can only do maybe 2,000 lumen (OTF) and Imalent is not using the best leds (highest bins) and they have to share power from 4 × 20700 cells. When Vestureofblood recently measured the lumens on his R90C he got about 16,000 and wondered if something was wrong. I think that’s about right, 1,800 lumen each is a more realistic number. That’s about what the BLF GT puts out at 2.5A.

So I don’t think it’s hitting it’s claimed lumen rating. On the other hand, it seems to be exceeding it’s throw rating.

I really don’t know much about the MS12’s output. I guess not many people that have one have a decently accurate way to measure it’s output.

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The MS18 and Imalent are getting trolled I agree. Is it out of line though?

The thread is dedicated to their two new lights. There’ll be some discussion on how they work, how their new cooling system works which there is. The majority of the discussion however will be peoples opnions and potential buyers voicing either their concern or their support.

I swore to myself that once somebody came out with a flashlight that broke the 100k lumen barrier I would buy one. I hoped that 2019 would be the year and based on previous drops X70 & MS12 I expected around Nov 2019 we would get the next versions which may or may not reach 100k lumens. Two months into 2019 its announced that Imalent has done it.

The skepticism is well founded and aside from the straight up bashing that can happen it’s very relevant when I’m considering a small used boat motor or a flashlight because the price in CAD will be well over $700.

I dug up the actual figures on lumens as they’re very relevant:
DX80 stated 32,000 tested 25,401 difference 6,599 overstated by 26%
R90C stated 20,000 tested 15,207 difference 4,793 overstated by 32%
MS12 stated 53,000 tested 38,952 difference 14,048 overstated by 36%

everybody overstates but by comparison Acebeam is much closer:
X70 stated 60,000 tested 49,691 difference 10,309 overstated by 21%

If we look at the way Imalent is gradually increasing the percentage they’re overstating their lights it suggests that the MS18 will very likely be overstated by 40%

with 40% predicted overstatement this light would produce 71,400 lumens at turn on

Incase anyone doesn’t understand my math: 38952 is the MS12 output so the difference of 14048 that is added by imalent represents a 36% increase of the actual output 38952

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nokoff wrote:
As an example, Skylumen/Vinh was brought up in this thread to compare to the MS18 output by a friend of Vinhs who appears IMO to shill for him every chance they get. I have had multiple poor experiences with Skylumen, they’re no longer even on my radar.

Probably talking about me! That is ok,I speak the truth backed up by others and my experience.So it is EASY to use V54 as an example,and I do!

,,,,,,Because his lights have MORE output than these manufacturers do, as they should.I simply pointed out that he crossed[legitimately] the 100K lumen mark before the aforementioned manufacturers.

You obviously are not fond of him[expressed above], so it is no surprise that if someone else is, it seems to bother you. Wink

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Even if Imalent overstates their lumens by 30% and the MS18 peaks at just 70,000 lumens it would still hold the record for output in a production light. That’s still something to be proud of. Imalent has produced some flawed products in the past. However, kudos should be given to them for:

  • Being extremely creative and innovative. For example: no other manufacturer ever came out with a variable tint light controlled via a slider on a touchscreen display like Imalent did several years ago.
  • Pushing the envelope. They are one of the few manufacturers showing us just what is possible in terms of output with LEDs these days.
  • Coming out with new models rapidly. It’s nice to see rapid releases and improvement. No waiting years for a new model from this manufacturer.
  • Addressing issues when they are found. From reading this thread it looks like when issues were found with the MS12, they did a recall and incurred massive expense in redesigning the head to fix the problems. The resulting new light is impressive. Not every manufacturer would do that. They aren’t perfect, but their heart appears to be in the right place.
  • They appear to be learning from their mistakes and some of their products are excellent.
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Looking at the Imalent failure poll, I will never own one. 700.00 for a bulky, heavy light that probably is over rating it’s lumens, and is most likely not reliable is a non starter for me. I also don’t like lights that need a fan. Everyone thankfully can buy what they want, and for those who like this light, go buy several.

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CREEXHP70LED wrote:
Looking at the Imalent failure poll, I will never own one. 700.00 for a bulky, heavy light that probably is over rating it’s lumens, and is most likely not reliable is a non starter for me. I also don’t like lights that need a fan. Everyone thankfully can buy what they want, and for those who like this light, go buy several.
I also have no need for a gigantic light. My needs are more about what I can fit in my pocket.

But just because I’m not going to purchase a gigantic light doesn’t mean I’m not interested in seeing what’s happening at the cutting edge. It’s quite interesting watching manufacturers fight to produce the most lumens.

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mattadores wrote:
The MS18 and Imalent are getting trolled I agree. Is it out of line though?

The thread is dedicated to their two new lights. There’ll be some discussion on how they work, how their new cooling system works which there is. The majority of the discussion however will be peoples opnions and potential buyers voicing either their concern or their support.

I swore to myself that once somebody came out with a flashlight that broke the 100k lumen barrier I would buy one. I hoped that 2019 would be the year and based on previous drops X70 & MS12 I expected around Nov 2019 we would get the next versions which may or may not reach 100k lumens. Two months into 2019 its announced that Imalent has done it.

The skepticism is well founded and aside from the straight up bashing that can happen it’s very relevant when I’m considering a small used boat motor or a flashlight because the price in CAD will be well over $700.

I dug up the actual figures on lumens as they’re very relevant:
DX80 stated 32,000 tested 25,401 difference 6,599 overstated by 26%
R90C stated 20,000 tested 15,207 difference 4,793 overstated by 32%
MS12 stated 53,000 tested 38,952 difference 14,048 overstated by 36%

everybody overstates but by comparison Acebeam is much closer:
X70 stated 60,000 tested 49,691 difference 10,309 overstated by 21%

If we look at the way Imalent is gradually increasing the percentage they’re overstating their lights it suggests that the MS18 will very likely be overstated by 40%

with 40% predicted overstatement this light would produce 71,400 lumens at turn on

Incase anyone doesn’t understand my math: 38952 is the MS12 output so the difference of 14048 that is added by imalent represents a 36% increase of the actual output 38952

If my opinion was perceived as bashing that was not my intent. I don’t recall telling anybody not to buy one. But I stand by what I say and what I said is relevant. These things aren’t cheap. People need to be informed of possible issues before they go and spend $800+

That being said… Even if the MS18 only does 71000 lumens, that’s still incredible! I hope it hits 100k lumens and I’ll be the first to say that if it does, I’ll be in line to buy one myself.

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Imalent seems like they’ve designed a head profile they like and are going to stick with it for many models. As someone else mentioned, a 12 cell set-up would be much better for a 100 000 lumen light.

how much would that thing weigh though? assuming they’d use the same head.

Would it also basically be as long as the infamous 6D maglight?

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