Tesla's new 4680 - We're gonna need a bigger flashlight

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Th558
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Agro wrote:
Yeah, with 300W that these should be able to deliver even GXB100 is not powerful enough. At the same time this driver would suddenly become so much more useful. Wink

Wait.. 300W from a single cell? 35000 lumen soda can lights incoming.
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Who’s going to do the first LT1 mod? (I’m not… not that skilled).

hank
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People used to make adapters for SLR camera bodies to allow using lenses from other manufacturers.
simple flat rings with each side configured for one brand’s bayonet or thread connection.

It ought to be possible to make new size battery tubes along with adapters for currently existing flashlight heads.

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Agro wrote:
Unless my quick calculation is wrong, 4×18650 has ~51 mm or more (depending on the maximum supported cell diameter). 46mm is great for soda can lights.

Circle-packing of 4×18mm = 44mm.

46mm is 3mm extra width, about the height of 3 stacked dimes.

But now you don’t need springs to accommodate 4 possibly variable-length cells (sort unprotected vs long protected), but can use a bunch of shallow domes or a big fat metal “leaf” to allow only a few mm of slop to make good solid contact.

I’d say it could probably drop into a Q8 right now by just boring it out and modding the bottom-inside of the tube.

I want one.

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Lightbringer
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thefreeman wrote:
4×18650 : 43.5mm

Yeh, and the cells inside the Q8 aren’t snug together, but flop around in their respective holes, so the big donk could just drop right in.

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Lightbringer
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Andrew_Debbie wrote:
I predict we will see Chinese 4680s sooner or later. They may not be as good as the Tesla ones.

TeslaFire cells, 99000000mAH, of course.

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kat
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These batteries make no sense in flashlights.
You don’t understand that the 40-50% increase in capacity and power is only noticeable in Tesla cars? Actually the larger the cell, the higher the car range will be. 4680 is not an ideal size. It’s just the maximum cell size they currently are able to produce.
But in a flashlight there wouldn’t be any difference between 5×18650 and 1×4680.

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But it should fit (more or less) into the space of 4×18650.

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patmurris
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kat wrote:
These batteries make no sense in flashlights. … But in a flashlight there wouldn’t be any difference between 5×18650 and 1×4680.

As Lightbringer points out it would fit in a 4×18650 space…
and fill the voids around the cells, providing more energy in the same volume – and eventually more available power/current.

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kat wrote:
These batteries make no sense in flashlights.
You don’t understand that the 40-50% increase in capacity and power is only noticeable in Tesla cars? Actually the larger the cell, the higher the car range will be. 4680 is not an ideal size. It’s just the maximum cell size they currently are able to produce.
But in a flashlight there wouldn’t be any difference between 5×18650 and 1×4680.

Some prefer 8×18650 lights to 4×18650 because of ergonomy.
But others prefer it because of increased runtime.
Tell them that they’d be better off with 18650.
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I cant seem to find any info on weight of a 4680
looks to me like a lot of copper

must weigh a ton!!!

Andrew_Debbie
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Quote:
must weigh a ton!!!

They claim the power/weight ratio is better than a tabbed cell.

Tesla 2170s are 250-260Wh/kg.

Back in August Musk tweeted that useful 400Wh/kg batteries are 3 or 4 years away.

That gives an upper and lower bound for the weight.

wle
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cool
this is the long lost single-A battery
the A cell!!

"You never have the wind with you - it's either against you, or you're having a good day."
    Daniel Behrman, "The Man Who Loved Bicycles".
It never gets easy, you just go faster.   
-Greg Lemond.
       ,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¸

2A
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Cool – that vintage battery would be ideal for electronic tail switches!

Andrew_Debbie
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The press reports I read didn’t watch or didn’t understand the presentation. The form factor and tabless design are only part of what they are attempting. and they didn’t show the secret sauce…

It is pretty easy to connect the dots:

Model S Plaid 0-60 < 2.0 Seconds Top Speed 200mph. Estimated Range 520 miles.

Protoypes of the new battery are already in test vehicles. Musk says the prototypes are easy compared to bringing this to volume production.

https://www.tesla.com/models/design#battery

manithree
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kat wrote:
These batteries make no sense in flashlights. … But in a flashlight there wouldn’t be any difference between 5×18650 and 1×4680.

There’s no way to install part of a 4680 backwards and ruin your flashlight, like you can with 4× 18650, so that’s a win. Just need reverse polarity protection, and that’s easy to do.

I guess if you’re happy with all your 5×18650 flashlights, feel free to not buy any 4680 lights. But I do hope they catch on with the big LiIon manufacturers and make their way to flashlights. With a new 4680 version, I would buy a new Q8, FT03 and D4s (at least).

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Is someone starting a group buy? I’m in for 8 units. Innocent

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Depending on price, I’d probably take 2. Hell, if I had to take a rasp to make the inside of a Q8 tube round, I’d do it. And those springs can be replaced or at worst cut down.

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Went to bed dreaming/designing 2S 4680 driving XHP 70.2 into overdrive.

BIG light!

edit: After some analysis, better to use 8.4 Volts to overdrive the nominal 6V 70.2

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I thought the convention was to add a zero to the end so as not to confuse a cylindrical cell with some tiny button battery. I guess 46800 was too long for Elon, and he must be saving a fortune in ink for documentation with just 4680.

Anyone seen anything about what the actual chemistry is?

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nocturne wrote:
I thought the convention was to add a zero to the end so as not to confuse a cylindrical cell with some tiny button battery.

Instead of 21700 Teslans have been saying 2170 for a long time now, too.

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Wasn’t it hyphenated, though? Ie, “21-70”?

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Andrew_Debbie
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nocturne wrote:
I thought the convention was to add a zero to the end so as not to confuse a cylindrical cell with some tiny button battery. I guess 46800 was too long for Elon, and he must be saving a fortune in ink for documentation with just 4680.

Anyone seen anything about what the actual chemistry is?

Yes.

Watch the presentation. It is about an hour long but covers all your questions and more. Starts by explaing why they need the new battery. Somehow the press just didn’t understand.

This link skips the shareholder meeting and starts at battery day.

https://youtu.be/l6T9xIeZTds?t=3590

If you don’t want to sit through why they are doing this, skip to 1:08:20

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My summary:

Tesla needs several TWh/yr battery production to meet storage and vehicle demand.

46mm costs less and improves energy density

Tabless greatly reduces internal resistance. > higher charge and discharge currents. Lower resistive heating losses. > better power to weight ratio.

The 5x energy +16% range 6x power graphic doesn’t include chemestry or other improvments. It represents tabless form factor alone. Tesla’s protype batteries are much better.

Tesla are ramping a 10GWh/year pilot plant now. Prototype cells have been in vehicles for months. They’ve made 10’s of thousands of cells but the yield isn’t great.

Varioius cathodes, all zero Cobalt. Fe for storage and low cost EV. NiMn for most EVs. High Ni for maxium energy density. (Tesla Semi mentioned. I suspect aircraft too)

Several process improvments to reduce cost and improve scalablity.

49% reduction in cell cost per kWh.

2 to 3 “Tesla” years to reach full production. They are always late, so 2.5 to 4 years??

Sidney Stratton
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nocturne wrote:
I thought the convention was to add a zero to the end so as not to confuse a cylindrical cell with some tiny button battery. I guess 46800 was too long for Elon, and he must be saving a fortune in ink for documentation with just 4680.

Actually, the 5 digit system was to follow the button type cell. The first two digits for diameter in approximate millimetres, the three last digits for height in tenths of a millimetre. As cylindrical cells have approximate dimensions, the resolution of height in 0.1mm is redundant.

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Andrew_Debbie wrote:
nocturne wrote:
I thought the convention was to add a zero to the end so as not to confuse a cylindrical cell with some tiny button battery. I guess 46800 was too long for Elon, and he must be saving a fortune in ink for documentation with just 4680.

Anyone seen anything about what the actual chemistry is?

Yes.

Watch the presentation. It is about an hour long but covers all your questions and more. Starts by explaing why they need the new battery. Somehow the press just didn’t understand.

This link skips the shareholder meeting and starts at battery day.

https://youtu.be/l6T9xIeZTds?t=3590

If you don’t want to sit through why they are doing this, skip to 1:08:20

Thanks. Here’s the actual break down in intelligence: “because we couldn’t figure out what it was for, we just assumed it wasn’t for anything.”

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/l6T9xIeZTds?start=4236&end=4255

OT
This is the first time I have ever heard Musk speak. It so often happens with famous rich people that no one can give them bad news, like, “I am sorry, Mr. Jackson, Propofol is not something you can have; it requires an anesthesiologist to administer, you have no valid need for it; it would be illegal… so, no.” Someone should tell Musk, and make certain he understands that it matters, that he can’t speak for sh!t, and that he should actually put effort and time into improving that, as doing it well can be learned, and it would benefit his enterprise immensely. The worst thing a smart person can do is assume they know everything, and then surround themselves with yes men with no ability to tell truth to power.

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Agro wrote:
…Now cordless tools won’t be among the drivers for this…

True, compared to vehicle demand, power tools won’t drive this. And these cells certainly won’t be showing up in your average drill kit. But they’d be great for cordless lawn mowers and other large tools! That kind of application should provide at least some incentive to mainstream this size of cell.

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Might be useful for electeic scooters.

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nice info for new 4680 from great Dave

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Dave started off from that same slide that only shows what Tesla get from the larger form factor. Everyone keeps making the same mistake.

That slide does not include chemestry improvments.

The real prototype cells do much better.

He does note that x5 and 16% seem too low…

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