Driver Info: HX-1175b & HX-1175B1 (Pic Heavy)

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wight
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Ouchyfoot wrote:
Then again, the LCK driver will run 3 x XML in series. I guess they’re different animals.

Note: Power Failure…there goes supper.

I don’t understand what you are getting at there. Sorry about dinner :-/

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
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Ouchyfoot
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Quote:
I don’t understand what you are getting at there.

I’m sure I don’t understand either.
What I mean is, the HX1175B isn’t made to drive emitters in series (at least I don’t think so), whereas the LCK will drive 3@5A per.
I was thinking that they don’t function in the same general manner.
RMM
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EDIT 7/2/15:  I wrote this before I understood a lot of the math and operation of these converters.  I would now recommend a different setup than this---especially the inductor.  Even though this setup works, it is very inefficient.

I have a few updates that I will post here soon, I may need to revise some of my prior thoughts.  The biggest help in driving dedomed XM-L2s has been to change the inductor and to add some low ESR output capacitance.  You really need a good 47uH inductor. I went with a 10.5A peak shielded inductor (the stock inductor is heavily influenced by its position relative to the output wires.)  

The quality of the capacitor matters a lot in this type of application.  You need low ESR.  If you don't have good quality caps, then multiple low farad caps in parallel will be more effective than one large capacitor.  Ceramic capacitors have the lowest ESR, but the capacity is low and if used by themselves can cause some issues with ringing (especially on the input side.)  

This is from a driver with the 47uH shielded inductor, stock sense resistors, 70N02 FET, 1x150uF and 1x470uF low ESR caps, about 7A output.  This is MUCH less ripple than with the stock set up.  This will run on a dedomed XM-L2 without any issues--try it with the stock setup and you'll get a very brief flash.  

 

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wight
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RMM wrote:

I have a few updates that I will post here soon, I may need to revise some of my prior thoughts.  The biggest help in driving dedomed XM-L2s has been to change the inductor and to add some low ESR output capacitance.  You really need a good 47uH inductor. I went with a 10.5A peak shielded inductor (the stock inductor is heavily influenced by its position relative to the output wires.)  

The quality of the capacitor matters a lot in this type of application.  You need low ESR.  If you don’t have good quality caps, then multiple low farad caps in parallel will be more effective than one large capacitor.  Ceramic capacitors have the lowest ESR, but the capacity is low and if used by themselves can cause some issues with ringing (especially on the input side.)  

This is from a driver with the 47uH shielded inductor, stock sense resistors, 70N02 FET, 1×150uF and 1×470uF low ESR caps, about 7A output.  This is MUCH less ripple than with the stock set up.  This will run on a dedomed XM-L2 without any issues—try it with the stock setup and you’ll get a very brief flash.  

 

Good update RMM. Thanks for keeping us posted. Looks like I need to eat my words a little about the output capacitance not helping ;). Low ESR seems to be the key to a lot of things. I assume that a shielded, 10.5A, 47uH inductor must be very large physically? Between the two large caps and the giant inductor, you seem to have assembled a real brick :p.

Can you try increasing the sample rate the next time you capture a trace? The outlier samples seem to be a long way out.

Ouchyfoot wrote:
Quote:
I don’t understand what you are getting at there.

I’m sure I don’t understand either.
What I mean is, the HX1175B isn’t made to drive emitters in series (at least I don’t think so), whereas the LCK will drive 3@5A per.
I was thinking that they don’t function in the same general manner.
I see what you were thinking now. The HX-1175b is constructed using a chip meant in part for controlling high voltage LED strings. The HX-1175b itself is marketed as a driver for SST-90 of course, but I’ve seen little to indicate that it shouldn’t work for higher voltage loads. Thinking more about what I already said, I can’t really see how the PSU section (zener and resistor) for the buck controller would be the problem. I’ll probably pick one up sooner or later to try to learn a little more about it.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
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ImA4Wheelr
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Took measurements with 2S and 3S driving an MT-G2.  Cells were King Kong ICR's charged to 4.2ish volts.  The cells are older and have internal resistance of about 40. Current to the MT-G2 with no driver was 6.5 amps.

 

 2S 3S
 HighLow HighLow
Input Current (Amps)52.5 52.5
Emitter Current (Amps)5.12.5 

6.7

3.4
Sensor Bank (mV)16277 16682

 The driver used is completely stock.  The HX-1175b1 only has High, Low, and Strobe modes.

EDIT: Fixed typos in table.

Ouchy,

If you get a chance, please post a pic of the 13amp driver.  Also, it would be helpful to know what current 2S of your 18500's deliver when connected directly to an MT-G2.

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How do I increase the sample rate on the DDS?  I haven't seen any place to do that.  

The inductor is actually the same size or smaller than the stock one, although I think it has higher DC resistance (more heat losses.) so it may not be the most efficient but it works well, is small enough to fit in most lights, and runs smooth.  The saturation point is what I was really after since I think what happens with the stock inductor that wreaks havoc.  With the stock inductor you can run pretty smooth up to a certain point then it just spikes like crazy!  Sometimes you can have an LED working fine then you move the LED wires by the inductor and then it blows.  

The driver fits well in the TK61 and my little mini intimidator.  If you are happy with 6.5A-7A you can get away without the output capacitors but I've added them for extra insurance.

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ImA4Wheelr
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I just corrected a couple errors in the table in Post 155. 

EDIT: Fixed again.  The table is so small when I edit it that I can't really see it until it is posted.  Numbers are all good now.

ImA4Wheelr
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I tried to guess cell voltage under load and Vf of the emitter to get a rough idea of efficiency.  Does it make sense for the driver to be more efficient on High mode?

 

 

 2S 3S
 HighLow HighLow
Input Current (Amps)5.12.5 52.5
Emitter Current (Amps)52.5 6.73.4
Sensor Bank (mV)16277 16682
# of Cells22 33
Cell Voltage w/Sag3.93.9 3.93.9
Watts Input39.819.5 58.529.25
      
Emitter Vf6.86.25 76.45
Watts Output3415.625 46.921.93
      
Efficiency85%80% 80%75%
wight
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RMM wrote:

How do I increase the sample rate on the DDS?  I haven’t seen any place to do that.  

The inductor is actually the same size or smaller than the stock one, although I think it has higher DC resistance (more heat losses.) so it may not be the most efficient but it works well, is small enough to fit in most lights, and runs smooth.  The saturation point is what I was really after since I think what happens with the stock inductor that wreaks havoc.  With the stock inductor you can run pretty smooth up to a certain point then it just spikes like crazy!  Sometimes you can have an LED working fine then you move the LED wires by the inductor and then it blows.  

The driver fits well in the TK61 and my little mini intimidator.  If you are happy with 6.5A-7A you can get away without the output capacitors but I’ve added them for extra insurance.

Again, good info – thanks. It sounds like the included software with a DDS-120 doesn’t allow you to manually change that, but if you make a small time/division it will increase the sample rate on it’s own. This is the thread that leads me to believe that. It should be easy to tell since it displays the samplerate on the screen? There may be alternative software which would allow you to force a higher samplerate, but just making a smaller amount of time/div would do what we want here. Based on the specs I assume that the actual limit is either 50MSa/sec or 200MSa/sec.

EDIT: I could be wrong, but I think that in HKJ’s driver reviews he uses 1μs – 2μs per division.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
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wight
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ImA4Wheelr wrote:

I tried to guess cell voltage under load and Vf of the emitter to get a rough idea of efficiency.  Does it make sense for the driver to be more efficient on High mode?

I’m not sure, but I see that you did not adjust cell voltage sag for the different loads. Considering that we’re talking about 5A vs 2.5A, I’d say you’ve got to do that.

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Rufusbduck
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You could warm it over that 13A MT-G2 >)

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

ImA4Wheelr
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wight wrote:

I’m not sure, but I see that you did not adjust cell voltage sag for the different loads. Considering that we’re talking about 5A vs 2.5A, I’d say you’ve got to do that.

Good point.  I need to find a HKJ chart for the KK and adjust.  I will do that later.  What I really should do is set up a driver testing rig so that I can collect all the relevant info needed for this type of stuff.

Ouchyfoot
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ImA4Wheelr wrote:

would be helpful to know what current 2S of your 18500’s deliver when connected directly to an MT-G2.


Right now I only have two Efest IMR18500 handy. This is all jury rigged with different wires, alligator clips and magnets, but I got a reading of 5.9A.
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wight wrote:
Ouchyfoot wrote:
B and C have R068 resistors. A is already wired into my Boxer, but probably the same.
Thanks. If possible I’d like to know the voltage drop across the sense resistor bank of each one while using 3s batteries. You can simply put your meter in the 2V range and put a probe on either side of the sense resistors. I’ll admit that this may not tell us much. The behavior does seem odd and that is the first place I can think of to check. The idea is to help narrow down the problem. If the voltage drop is ~0.25v at 13A then we can assume that the sense resistors are low quality and that the values do not match the markings. If the voltage is significantly higher than 0.25v then we will say that something else (the buck controller) is acting up.

Okay wight, I tested the voltage across the resistors while running the MTG at 13.45A and got a reading of .049v. I tested each resistor, and got that reading. What it means, I don’t have any clue. Hope I did it correctly.
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Ouch! I went to take another reading before I disassembled everything, and smoke was coming out of both resistors. I sure am glad I checked this driver before it went into a light.

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Do you see anything different in the components between the 13amp driver and the other 2 drivers.  Any bad solder joints or solder bridging components?

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ImA4Wheelr wrote:

Do you see anything different in the components between the 13amp driver and the other 2 drivers.  Any bad solder joints or solder bridging components?


I looked it all over with a jewelers loop and didn’t see anything different from the other ones. No burned or charred spots. I even tested a few solder spots with my DMM. Then again, my eyes aren’t that good.
wight
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Swap in new sense resistors please.

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Ouchyfoot
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I’ll have to poke around to see if I can find some.

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I swapped in some R086 resistors I scavenged from other drivers. Over 14A and started smoking. All the resistors have holes burned through the center.

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Maybe the buck converter is oriented the wrong direction.  Unfortunately they grind the label off of them.  So I don't know how you could tell.

wight
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Ouchyfoot wrote:
I swapped in some R086 resistors I scavenged from other drivers. Over 14A and started smoking. All the resistors have holes burned through the center.
Ouchyfoot wrote:
Okay wight, I tested the voltage across the resistors while running the MTG at 13.45A and got a reading of .049v. I tested each resistor, and got that reading. What it means, I don’t have any clue. Hope I did it correctly.
Thanks for testing this. You definitely got .049 and not 0.49? 13A across a total of 0.034 ohms should give about that much drop (1/2 volt). Sounds a lot like you are getting DD or as close as this driver will come (with the FET and inductor in the mix).

ImA4Wheelr wrote:

Maybe the buck converter is oriented the wrong direction.  Unfortunately they grind the label off of them.  So I don’t know how you could tell.

Could be I suppose. With QX5241 that just gives you a dead driver, but the pinout for QX9920 is different enough that it might give you DD; I’m not sure.

I think that it could also simply be a defective controller chip.

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Ouchyfoot
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My DMM said .049v. I just set it to voltage, it’s got auto ranging. That’s all I know.

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Seems like something is going on with the buck converter.  Your driver is acting like mine did when I tied the PWM from an Attiny13a to the output pin of the buck converter.  Wight pointed out to me then that I had basically turned the driver into a DD.

Later, I accidentally tore a leg off of that buck converter.  I purchased a replacement that wight suggested may work.  I will hopefully swap it tomorrow night.  I'll let you know how it goes.  The buck converters are fairly cheap.

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wight,

Good call on the QX9920 buck converter.  It works.  Current to the emitter was as follows:

2S cells 4.5 amps (dropped fast to 4.4)

3S cells 7.15 amps

Thank you Smile

 

Ouchyfoot,

Sorry it took me so long to get around to trying out the new buck converter.  Here is a data sheet that wight linked me to.  Here is where I bought mine from (link from this wight post).

EDIT: My chips were labled LEDA 1402.  There was no indicator mark I could find for Pin 1.  One of the short sides had a slight nub.  I oriented the chip with the nub facing away from the inductor coil.

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I added a couple R20 resistors to the above driver (using QX9920 buck converter).  Pulls 9.65 amps with both 3S and 4S King Kong cells driving an MT-G2.  Piggy backed an Attiny13a with JonnyC's STAR momentary modified by Tom E to include strobe.  Wow, what a fun driver.  I know exactly what light it's going in.  Actually, I know 4 other lights that will be getting the similar setups.

EDIT: I just realized.  I heard no PWM whine last night.  The only things I did different was the FW  just mentioned above and I completely air wired the MCU.  In the past, I soldered the PWM leg of the MCU directly to the buck converter.  Here is a pic (sorry, it's a bit blurry.)

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Very interesting indeed!

ImA4Wheelr
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Was hoping to find a spot on this driver to use for voltage monitoring.  I poked and prodded with a volt meter using 2S and 3S cells, but could not find much of a drop in voltage anywhere on the driver.  With 3S, most points read 5.27V.  With 2S cells (resting at 7.92V) the same places measured 5.15  With such a small difference, I don't think it would do any good to install a voltage divider.  I'm sure one would probably for for 2S, but not for 3S and 4S.

EDIT: Driver was under no load in the above measuring (no MCU or emitters connected).

wight
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ImA4Wheelr wrote:

Was hoping to find a spot on this driver to use for voltage monitoring.  I poked and prodded with a volt meter using 2S and 3S cells, but could not find much of a drop in voltage anywhere on the driver.  With 3S, most points read 5.27V.  With 2S cells (resting at 7.92V) the same places measured 5.15  With such a small difference, I don’t think it would do any good to install a voltage divider.  I’m sure one would probably for for 2S, but not for 3S and 4S.

EDIT: Driver was under no load in the above measuring (no MCU or emitters connected).

It’s been a while since I thought about this driver (and I still don’t have one myself). Glancing over your pics again, maybe it does not have a voltage divider. That shouldn’t be showstopper though, airwiring a voltage divider should be an easy thing. I think I’ve covered the component selection (two resistors) pretty well over here (#917). For such a large driver I’d probably just use standard 1/8w or 1/4w through-hole resistors, you probably have the room for them. Higher values are better, less power draw.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
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Excellent.  Great post you linked to there.  I will be giving that a shot.  I have a 4S build in progress.  I should be trying it soon.  I'll report back.

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