16mm star for IR (infra red) illuminator. Help wanted.

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luminarium iaculator
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16mm star for IR (infra red) illuminator. Help wanted.

Dear BLF members,

I can not find 1W(single IR led) IR 850 (infrared) on 16mm star anywhere…

So if you know where I could order them it would be much appreciated.

There are lot of them on 20 mm base but not on 16???

I can not find them on 16 mm star anywhere, and 16 mm is most commonly used for P60 drop ins so this is really strange…):

P.S.

Do you maybe know what is maximum drive current for this babies?

I need that for gen 1 night vision device so it must be brightest possible.

Edited by: luminarium iaculator on 01/06/2014 - 09:22
keltex78
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http://dx.com/s/ir+emitter

DX has bare 5W IR emitters as well as 1W and 3W emitters on 20mm boards. They also have the 16mm boards for mouting the emitters but in a 65-pack for $6.29.

http://dx.com/p/diy-16mm-1w-3w-5w-led-pcb-boards-65-pack-140015

A cheaper option is to buy a 5-pack of cheaper LEDs already mounted on 16mm boards and then replace the LEDs yourself if you only need a small quantity:

http://dx.com/p/diy-16mm-1w-3w-5w-led-pcb-boards-65-pack-140015

These solder on easily without reflowing like you would with a Cree emitter...

Alternatively, if you only need a single P60 drop-in, you can buy that as a ready-to-go unit:

http://dx.com/p/high-powered-3w-infrared-ir-drop-in-module-for-wf-502b-style-flashlights-8-4v-12625


Keepin’ the “B” in BLF

Don wrote:
It sounds like the XM LEDs won’t really be suitable for flashlight use. Pity…

gmarsh
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The leads on that particular LED package are about 16mm wide to start with – you need to cut them shorter to fit in a 16mm form factor. The LED is also quite tall, so if you mount it on a thick PCB, chances are the reflector won’t screw on to the P60.

My recommendation is to get some Arctic Alumina epoxy and glue the IR LED in place, like so. You need a thin layer of epoxy between the metal pill and LED base, otherwise you’ll get a short circuit and you’ll blow the LED as soon as you turn the flashlight on.

If you want to go as bright as possible with a single LED, get your hands on an Osram SFH4715s (850nm) or SFH4725s (940nm) infrared LED and mount it on a Cree XP-G MCPCB. I’m using the 940nm version on a homemade 16mm FR4 PCB for my TV-B-Gone flashlight project.

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I would stick with 850nm unless you’ve tested 940nm & its shown to work well with your gen I nightvision.
Gen II & III response cuts out before 940. I’ve read an extended range is possible with some gen I.


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keltex78
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gmarsh wrote:
You need a thin layer of epoxy between the metal pill and LED base, otherwise you'll get a short circuit and you'll blow the LED as soon as you turn the flashlight on.

Maybe a layer of Kapton tape? Frown That might be thinner and offer more protection than a thin layer of epoxy?


Keepin’ the “B” in BLF

Don wrote:
It sounds like the XM LEDs won’t really be suitable for flashlight use. Pity…

gmarsh
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keltex78 wrote:

gmarsh wrote:
You need a thin layer of epoxy between the metal pill and LED base, otherwise you’ll get a short circuit and you’ll blow the LED as soon as you turn the flashlight on.

Maybe a layer of Kapton tape? Frown That might be thinner and offer more protection than a thin layer of epoxy?


Probably not a bad idea – lay down a bit of kapton tape, then a dollop of AA, then mash the LED down hard on top of it.
luminarium iaculator
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Before I start my apologize for late reply,

Thanks on help guys...

Well i need single 1W IR 850 16 mm base or complete drop-in. As you all pointed out there are plenty of 3W and 5W drop ins but not 1W...

keltex78 it seems that i can not find 1W 16 mm IR 850's already mounted on 16 mm stars on DX? I was searching for half an hour and nothing? Your link for this is pointing on 16mm stars(thanks for this I have it in option).

gmarsh thanks on very nice idea... Very nice explanation how to mount it without star(led pcb)... So you recommend Osram SFH4715s (850nm)?  Would you be so kind and tell us what is maximum drive current for this 1W IR's? I have few AMC 7135 0,7A drivers... Will they suit for them or for those cheaper ones from DX?

Helios I would also stick to 850 because they seem to be brighter than 940, although plenty of people claims that 940 is less visible(or completely invisible) for game observation.

 

Why I want 1W 850 IR? It works best with aspheric

Why I want brightest possible? It will throw further...

Any of your experience with this type of modding especially max drive current(most suitable drivers) for this babies would be much appreciated.

 

Noctigons and Sinkpads would probably give the best from this IR's but they don't have such pcb's.

Artic alumina(i have it at home, and used it to made few drop ins in vinhnguyen style)  is great idea but 16mm star mounted IR that lays pressed on artic silver 5(or better thermal paste) seems like most logical choice for me at this moment. In fact I can use AA on 16 mm led PCB if I will not find 16 mm IR mounted ones Smile

After you apply artic alumina there is no returning back. It is concrete solid. Imho even more solid than solder.

 

Any good and reliable source for this Osram SFH4715s (850nm) ones?

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I was just searching for what DX had for IR emitters. To me, it looks like your only option (at least from DX) would be to buy a cheaper white emitter mounted on a 16mm board remove the white emitter to solder your own IR emitter on the same board. I'm trying something similar with a UV emitter to make my own drop-in.

I understand what you are saying about needing the 1W (single emitter) unit to use with an aspheric... I'm curious to know how well that will work!


Keepin’ the “B” in BLF

Don wrote:
It sounds like the XM LEDs won’t really be suitable for flashlight use. Pity…

luminarium iaculator
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keltex78 wrote:

I was just searching for what DX had for IR emitters. To me, it looks like your only option (at least from DX) would be to buy a cheaper white emitter mounted on a 16mm board remove the white emitter to solder your own IR emitter on the same board. I'm trying something similar with a UV emitter to make my own drop-in.

I understand what you are saying about needing the 1W (single emitter) unit to use with an aspheric... I'm curious to know how well that will work!

Friend you don't need to be curious because it works excellent! Especially with bigger aspherics. But it all depend whether you need long range illumination or not... For close encounters P60 reflector light + 5W IR would be the best.

Could someone kindly tell us what is maximum drive current for this 1W IR 850's and recommend suitable drivers?

But I think experiment will be necessary for brightest IR configuration possible, and since most people does not have night vision device and they are not modding IR's I understand lack of data on this type of modding...

 

gmarsh
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luminarium iaculator wrote:

gmarsh thanks on very nice idea… Very nice explanation how to mount it without star(led pcb)… So you recommend Osram SFH4715s (850nm)?  Would you be so kind and tell us what is maximum drive current for this 1W IR’s? I have few AMC 7135 0,7A drivers… Will they suit for them or for those cheaper ones from DX?


The maximum drive current for that chinese 1W LED is about 0.7 amps, assuming a 1.4-1.5V forward voltage. A dual AMC7135 driver is your best choice for it.

For the maximum IR light output possible, I recommend SFH4715S – make sure you order it with the S, as it’s the dual series die version with twice the light output. The LED is rated at 1A forward current, a 3*AMC7135 driver will output 1.05A which the LED will certainly handle. A 4*7135 driver (1.4A) should work reliably if the LED is adequately cooled, on a good XP-G MCPCB you shouldn’t have any thermal problems.

The SFH4715S can handle twice the current (one doubling in light output) as the chinese LED, has two dies versus one (doubling the light output again) and I imagine the LED is at least twice as efficient. So I imagine you’ll get 8-10x as much light out of the SFH4715S versus your 1W chinese LED.

luminarium iaculator
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gmarsh wrote:
luminarium iaculator wrote:

gmarsh thanks on very nice idea... Very nice explanation how to mount it without star(led pcb)... So you recommend Osram SFH4715s (850nm)?  Would you be so kind and tell us what is maximum drive current for this 1W IR's? I have few AMC 7135 0,7A drivers... Will they suit for them or for those cheaper ones from DX?

The maximum drive current for that chinese 1W LED is about 0.7 amps, assuming a 1.4-1.5V forward voltage. A dual AMC7135 driver is your best choice for it. For the maximum IR light output possible, I recommend SFH4715S - make sure you order it with the S, as it's the dual series die version with twice the light output. The LED is rated at 1A forward current, a 3*AMC7135 driver will output 1.05A which the LED will certainly handle. A 4*7135 driver (1.4A) should work reliably if the LED is adequately cooled, on a good XP-G MCPCB you shouldn't have any thermal problems. The SFH4715S can handle twice the current (one doubling in light output) as the chinese LED, has two dies versus one (doubling the light output again) and I imagine the LED is at least twice as efficient. So I imagine you'll get 8-10x as much light out of the SFH4715S versus your 1W chinese LED.

 

Excellent and superb advice! 8-10× more light is so fascinating that you hooked me on...If I will manage to made at least twice as bright over the regular 1W IR 850 I will have to repay you somehow Smile


I just got to find that SFH4715S somewhere. If someone find vendor with international shipping please post here.

gmarsh
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This will give you a bunch of electronics distributors stocking the part, pick one in your part of the world.

http://www.oemstrade.com/search/sfh4715s/

luminarium iaculator
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It seems that I can not order any SFH4715s.


I will be stuck with China ones...

 

Anyone tried to de-dome IR's?

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I don't think the Chinese IR emitter have domes like the Cree emitters. I think it's just a protective plastic bubble...


Keepin’ the “B” in BLF

Don wrote:
It sounds like the XM LEDs won’t really be suitable for flashlight use. Pity…

kevind43
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mouser has the 4715s and they also have the berquist stars for them. The 4715s will not go on an xpe/g sinkpad because the 4715s and 4725s have the thermal path and anode connected. I blew up a few before i figured it out.

I have not found the need to dedome the osram IR emitters. They put out enough light to illuminate way beyond sensible shooting ranges when used in IR illuminators for nightvision scopes.

alpg88
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i’m actually starting a project a bit similar to yours, i’m building ir light for my camera, which is old sony 8mm 0lux cam.
it has 2 small 850nm leds build in, but i also build array from 13 0,2W 10mm leds. night and day difference.

now i’m building 10w ir light, i’ll use 2 5w ledengin 850hm leds. and 38mm 14* lenses, it’ll run on 4 18650 cells.

so far i got most parts and as time allows start the build, will make a new thread than.

kevind43
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alpg88 wrote:
i’m actually starting a project a bit similar to yours, i’m building ir light for my camera, which is old sony 8mm 0lux cam.
it has 2 small 850nm leds build in, but i also build array from 13 0,2W 10mm leds. night and day difference.

now i’m building 10w ir light, i’ll use 2 5w ledengin 850hm leds. and 38mm 14* lenses, it’ll run on 4 18650 cells.

so far i got most parts and as time allows start the build, will make a new thread than.

very cool project. I will keep an eye on your progress for sure. The Vf is very high on that emitter. I will have to look around for a boost driver to use in a dual 18650 light. this emitter might be just the ticket in a slight defocused aspheric gun light application.

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At what point does one have to start being concerned about IR safety ? a single oslon is rated at 800 mW/sr of radiation. When used to create a flood illuminator i guess its not going to be too dangerous but I imagine i would not walk in front of it if it was focused with a reflector or a lens … what kind of precautions do you guys take? there seems to be very little in way of guidelines on the net.

by the way, why are reflectors way less common in IR builds than aspherics or lenses ? Its the other way around with flashlights.

Only reason I can think of is the oslon emitters half angle which favors aspherics, but is that all or is there some other reason ? are the losses for reflectors/aspherics somehow different with IR and visible light ?

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I bought a oslon ir-emitter at rs-online together with stuff from work. Another one I bought from mouser, they ship worldwide to anyone but have high shipping costs (but it is there in three days Smile  )

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Guys I will just say that you can not buy China 16 mm 1W 850 IR's mounted on 16 mm pcb's anywhere...

They only sell 20 mm ones...

4715s really looks good but Even if I order 10 pcs and pay more than 100$ for them I can bet that I will ruin at least 2 of them...

I seen that Djozz made one 4715s on xpg sinkpad so I guess it would work.

I have XPG noctigons and now some guys says 4715s can bee mounted and some says it can't.

4715s is to expensive for experiment.

 

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@ fred..safety is always a concern. never look directly into a light with an IR emitter.never. I use a camera that is sensitive to the 850nm and 940nm wavelength to “see” the beam. They work well in reflector lights. They yield a beam pattern similiar to an xpe. The aspherics are popular because most applications for the emitters are in illuminators for weapons mounted nightvision equipment. With aspherics the user has the ability to adjust the beam to meet the needs of the situation. Plus the extra distance you get out of a tightly focused beam.

@lum iac…the only way a 4715s can be used on a SinkPad or NOCTIGON is to electrically isolate the star from the negative pathway of the flashlight. As I said above the anode and the thermal slug are connected on the 4715s and 4725s. screwing the star to the light housing short circuits the emitter and poof. I have used a thicker layer of thermal epoxy to attach the star and it works but defeats the whole purpose of mounting the emitter on a Sinkpad. The berquist stars are the best for oslon IR emitter at this time, they can also be filed or turned down to 16mm.

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kevind43 wrote:
@ fred..safety is always a concern. never look directly into a light with an IR emitter.never. I use a camera that is sensitive to the 850nm and 940nm wavelength to "see" the beam. They work well in reflector lights. They yield a beam pattern similiar to an xpe. The aspherics are popular because most applications for the emitters are in illuminators for weapons mounted nightvision equipment. With aspherics the user has the ability to adjust the beam to meet the needs of the situation. Plus the extra distance you get out of a tightly focused beam. @lum iac...the only way a 4715s can be used on a SinkPad or NOCTIGON is to electrically isolate the star from the negative pathway of the flashlight. As I said above the anode and the thermal slug are connected on the 4715s and 4725s. screwing the star to the light housing short circuits the emitter and poof. I have used a thicker layer of thermal epoxy to attach the star and it works but defeats the whole purpose of mounting the emitter on a Sinkpad. The berquist stars are the best for oslon IR emitter at this time, they can also be filed or turned down to 16mm.

I glued the sinkpad with ir-oslon on the pill with arctic alumina adhesive. The layer can be really thin, it is a perfect isolator, so heatsinking is still very good. You can measure continuety with a DMM while glueing to check what is going on

gmarsh
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kevind43 wrote:
@ fred..safety is always a concern. never look directly into a light with an IR emitter.never. I use a camera that is sensitive to the 850nm and 940nm wavelength to “see” the beam. They work well in reflector lights. They yield a beam pattern similiar to an xpe. The aspherics are popular because most applications for the emitters are in illuminators for weapons mounted nightvision equipment. With aspherics the user has the ability to adjust the beam to meet the needs of the situation. Plus the extra distance you get out of a tightly focused beam.

@lum iac…the only way a 4715s can be used on a SinkPad or NOCTIGON is to electrically isolate the star from the negative pathway of the flashlight. As I said above the anode and the thermal slug are connected on the 4715s and 4725s. screwing the star to the light housing short circuits the emitter and poof. I have used a thicker layer of thermal epoxy to attach the star and it works but defeats the whole purpose of mounting the emitter on a Sinkpad. The berquist stars are the best for oslon IR emitter at this time, they can also be filed or turned down to 16mm.


You can see 850nm/940nm as a faint purple flash on a cellphone camera, you don’t need a specialized camera. I use my cellphone camera for testing TV-B-Gone’s after I build them.

Putting an Oslon on a sinkpad/noctigon doesn’t really defeat the point – I’m pretty sure the the delta-C/watt across the few square centimeters of thermal epoxy under a star should be less than the delta-C/watt across the usual MCPCB dielectric in a the tiny bit of area under the LED.

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Thanks guys, plenty of good advices in this thread now.

Well I did make some orders:

1W IR 850 from DX

http://dx.com/p/1w-850nm-infrared-ir-led-emitter-5-piece-pack-145716

1W IR with different optics(dome) from ali express:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-10pcs-Infrared-transmitting...

I also ordered above mentioned 16 mm LED PCB's for 1-5W leds from DX and Ali express ( I want they come as fast as possible so if one of them fails probably other won't Smile )



But I am still concerned about suitable driver for China 1W IR 850

I have few 4×AMC7135 (i don't have 2×AMC7135 as I mentioned above)


Main question for you guys is do I really have suitable driver for this or I have to order something else?
If I don't have please recommend some other drivers.Maybe more suitable than this one?

I mean we mentioned that max drive current for cheap China 1W ir is 0,7A. I am planing to use it on 1×18650 flashlight and this 4×amc7135(I will unsolder 2 amc's) will heat much more than maybe other type of driver?

Well I can slap things together but I am not driver expert. Need your opinion guys with link if any.

 

 

 

gmarsh
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Just desolder two AMC7135s from your 4x drivers.

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djozz wrote:

kevind43 wrote:
fred..safety is always a concern. never look directly into a light with an IR emitter.never. I use a camera that is sensitive to the 850nm and 940nm wavelength to "see" the beam. They work well in reflector lights. They yield a beam pattern similiar to an xpe. The aspherics are popular because most applications for the emitters are in illuminators for weapons mounted nightvision equipment. With aspherics the user has the ability to adjust the beam to meet the needs of the situation. Plus the extra distance you get out of a tightly focused beam. lum iac…the only way a 4715s can be used on a SinkPad or NOCTIGON is to electrically isolate the star from the negative pathway of the flashlight. As I said above the anode and the thermal slug are connected on the 4715s and 4725s. screwing the star to the light housing short circuits the emitter and poof. I have used a thicker layer of thermal epoxy to attach the star and it works but defeats the whole purpose of mounting the emitter on a Sinkpad. The berquist stars are the best for oslon IR emitter at this time, they can also be filed or turned down to 16mm.

I glued the sinkpad with ir-oslon on the pill with arctic alumina adhesive. The layer can be really thin, it is a perfect isolator, so heatsinking is still very good. You can measure continuety with a DMM while glueing to check what is going on

will it work. yup
is AA epoxy a perfect isolator-nope
is the heatsinking still very good. not by my standards. Almost a 20% drop in output within seconds of start up vs a star mounted with screws and metal to metal contact.

If it’s the only way you can to attach the star then go for it.

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Make it host positive. Smile


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you could solder\reflow led on the pill itself, can’t get any better heatpath.

i just thought of that, and tried before posting, never reflowed on brass pill before, i didn’t have any bare led, so i soldered\reflowed a piece of brass, on to brass pill. if that worked i see why led shouldn’t. here and here

i use tiny frying pan and gas oven. low setting, as soon as paste melts i center led, and shut off heat, works great, not a single led was ever ruined in process.

i soldered those type of leds on 20mm stars, dozen of times, they have quite large heatpad, almost like p7, i never seen any of such leds sold, that had soldered heatpad, all soldered just by legs manualy, and led just sits on the star, sometimes they put thermal paste.

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lol, now i just thought, is the heatpad electrically neutral, in those leds?

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Well I still don't have it but as you told heatpad is electrically neutral so it should not be soldered...

But even in other case those plastic around IR emitter would burn upon re flowing...  Smile

So only artic alumina or even fujik under the bottom of emitter...I think China sellers put Fujik.

 

So no any further driver suggestions for 1W IR 850 China led?

So far we have only 0,7A AMC7135(domesticus vulgaris Smile )  driver recommendation...

Your experience will be much appreciated...

 

 

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Kevin I see that you replied to Djozz,

Artic Alumina is concrete solid thermal mass with an excellent thermal properties(similar to artic silver 5 that people usually put on cpus or under the star with screws mounted) so I guess it should work even better considering that Sinkpad is copper PCB, and your is aluminum?

So no way he got 20% drop. I would try that Oslon on mine XPG Noctigon but as Djozz said they have ridiculous expensive Oslon emitter + ridiculously expensive post. I am not willing to take such risk.

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