Warsun A9, Bad pill desing! (photos)

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maciex93
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Warsun A9, Bad pill desing! (photos)

Hello!

I purchase warsun A9 from banggood http://www.banggood.com/Warsun-A9-Cree-XML2-4Mode-1198-Lumens-High-Power-LED-Flashlight-p-928860.html
I saw rewiew http://budgetlightforum.com/node/30744 and decide to buy flashlight from warsun company.
On photos all were great. Solid oring, nice reflector plenty of heatsinking…. BUT!

Pill desing is horrible. Directly under MCBCB is milled small step. Contact area with pill and MCPCB is very limited in that design.
Under MCPCB was a lot of thermal compound, but all we know that is not good, and thick layer of thermal compound not fulfill its role.

My question is: WHY? Why to do something like that?

P7010210.JPGP7010212.JPGP7010213.JPGP7010214.JPGP7010215.JPG

RaceR86
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I have not idea why they do it, but thanks for the warning.

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Jerommel
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Designed for a thick 14mm MPCB maybe? :~

maciex93
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I don’t think so…

Jerommel
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Then they didn’t spin out enough, because you would spin out where the MPCB sits in / on, for better heat transfer than an anodized surface.
Why else, as it is already spun flat before anodizing, would they do this at all?
Don’t get me wrong, it’s major fu.. foul up, of course.
I’m curious about the diameter of that recession though.
Looks like about 14mm or a bit less..

WarHawk-AVG
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Might be best just to mill a few thousands off, sure that little dimple in the middle will be a problem but now it makes the entire shelf uniform across and the bulk of the star will fit…they could have just drilled out the shelf and left you with a “hollow” pill design…that is the one that always has me scratching my head

maciex93
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I think it will be better in they will leave anodisation, or in CNC lathe something gone wrong, but QC dont matter about…
Diameter of that recession is 13,5mm.

maciex93
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That “little dimple” in not so little, i think more than 0,1mm, maybe 0,2mm.

DanielM
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take a coin or similar and make it small enough to fit, than place the star on it

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Helios-
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For two surfaces in direct contact (like an LED star), heat transfers better through un-anodized aluminum. Milling the pill would have been good but warsun completely screwed it up.


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maciex93
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Helios- wrote:
For two surfaces in direct contact (like an LED star), heat transfers better through un-anodized aluminum. Milling the pill would have been good but warsun completely screwed it up.

Exactly!

Jerommel
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maciex93 wrote:
Diameter of that recession is 13,5mm.
Dang… That’s small..
It would solve the problem though if you could swap it for a small sinkpad.
I don’t know which sizes they make, I believe 12 mm is also available.
I have some aluminium cheapo 14mm MPCB’s, but they’re for XP size.
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Are you going to try to get warsun to replace it?

If you can’t get a replacement, I would create a 13mm star that fits in the recess.


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Jerommel
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It’s probably sufficient this way when you run 2.5A or something.
It’s just extremely annoying for someone who knows a thing or two about flashlight-design and heat management..
And if you want to beef it up with a more powerful driver, this gap will become a real problem..

I think it’s a nice light, by the way.

maciex93
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No, I haven’t tried to get replacement, It will be hard to explain for chinese guy why it is wrong Wink
Probably I will find someone with lathe or I will use sinkpad/noctigon grinded to 13mm.

Tom E
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The center dimple I've seen before in a XinTD X3. The raised center area - I've also just seen something similar in a MaxToch M12. The dimple I filled in with a piece of copper, flattened piece of wire, then filled the rest with AS5. The X3 performed very well with heat  after that. The M12 I'm not so sure of - could be doing better I'm thinking, not sure. It's not totally bad - I would sand down the center raised area as best as I can, all the way to 2000 or 2500 GRIT paper, then try filling in the dimple. I have an A10 here now - I could check it out, and report back here.

Yes - somehow BG and Warsun should get our message we are not happy about this design - it's a poor design for sure.

I looked at the review and seems like blfdemigod wasn't an experienced modder and didn't check under the star, though he did pull apart just about everything else...

zelee
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thanks for the warning :~

Tom E
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Okay - I confirmed the A10 has exactly the same pill top as your pictures, and as you described -- awful... Cry

I took a couple of pics, but photobucket seems to be down right now - they don't show anything different from yours. Going to a copper star with a direct thermal path will help here, but for really high amps, probably something more needs to be done. Boy, wish I had the skill and the tools to smooth out that top - some guys here can do that with enough precision. Easier, for me that is, is to use a thin copper disc roughly 13 mm in diameter to sit in that shiny center. At least you would have some contact to the star in the center area. I would also try filling in the dimple partially with something, even copper dust or something, than a thermal grease. With a 20mm star, I would then tap threaded holes into the pill top and screw down the star tight. Using high qual thermal grease under the star would be the best. At least screwed down, you'd would get a tight fit to improve thermal transfer. I always sand star and pill top surfaces to 2000 or 2500 GRIT to make them as smooth as possible, again, for better thermal transfer, then ideally light amount of thermal grease to fill the micro gaps.

I posted to two other threads by blfdemigod on the Warsun lights, including a link to this thread. Thanks for pointing this out!

Tom E
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Just left a message on the Warsun wesbite, and Mr Fang replied already and said he'll look into it and get back to me. We'll see what he finds out and says. I have an X60 on order, waiting on it to arrive, and have an A10 to mod.

Don't know how accurate this is, but I measured the wider depression at 0.27 mm. The thinnest copper discs I got are 0.47 mm. I have copper sheet metal that is about 0.9mm - oh boy, nothing really match's well. I could use the thin copper disc and attempt to sand it down to get it close. I think this will be the best fix, plus screwing down the star.

freeme
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Someone thought it was a good idea to make a cavity/ recess for the thermal compound. Steve

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comfychair
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If that were mine, I would probably just fill in the pocket with JB Weld and then mill it down flat. I know I sound like a broken record with this, but with the large contact area the thermal properties of the material matters very little. Thermal properties of the tiny area between the LED center pad & MCPCB is the only truly critical spot, because it's so small and has to carry the same heat load as the much larger MCPCB-to-pill (or body) contact area.

Tom E
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comfy - how would you mill it? Been meaning to ask you details - I got a bench drill press, a Skil nothing great, but looking for good bits/attachments to work with alum, copper and brass. Also I saw that jig you have - would love to get that setup as well. Any tips would help! Maybe the wrong thread, but I would try the JB Weld method you are describing.

leaftye
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An alternative is to copper plate it, fill it with solder, then press it flat with a piece of aluminum.  The solder will stick to the copper plating, but not the aluminum.  This will also work if you want to solder your mcpcb to the pill.  I have a thread about my recent experiences with copper plating.  It doesn't even need to be copper plated.  Stopping with a nickel plate should be enough, but I do love me some copper.

The low mode should be lower.

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Tom E wrote:

comfy - how would you mill it? Been meaning to ask you details - I got a bench drill press, a Skil nothing great, but looking for good bits/attachments to work with alum, copper and brass. Also I saw that jig you have - would love to get that setup as well. Any tips would help! Maybe the wrong thread, but I would try the JB Weld method you are describing.

Carbide or HSS endmills, a low profile drill press vise, and 1x1x1/8" aluminum angle for making various fixture plates/soft jaws. JB Weld is super easy, aluminum is easy most of the time, copper will make you want to forget ever trying such madness.

I already hijacked another thread over here--> http://budgetlightforum.com/node/31774

Tom E
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Oh wow. I need to get a setup like this - would make things I only dream about possible...

leaftye - are you using this plating technique now on alum pills with success?

leaftye
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The plating technique should work, but I haven't done it on a pill yet.  Today I'm going to try adding a thick copper plate onto some springs.  If that goes quickly, I'll try a pill too, otherwise it'll wait until tomorrow.  I don't see why it wouldn't work unless it's 50xx aluminum.  Supposedly the higher magnesium content can make plating and soldering much more difficult that it already is with aluminum.

The low mode should be lower.

Tom E
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Mr. Fang got back to me. Well, he's saying we are right but it doesn't effect the performance of the light - it can still be run for hours on high.. This is probably true, but they are probably not conducting prolonged heat/efficiency tests to quantify the issue. Also in stock form, the amps is lower than we'd like, so easier to manage the heat.

Here's my pics below. The big cut indent is about 13-14 mm in diameter and about 0.27 mm deep:

leaftye
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I can accept if this batch of lights is bad, but not attempting to address it in future runs upsets me more than a little.  So much for Warsun being the new budget high quality alternative.

The low mode should be lower.

Tom E
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I'm still emailing with Mr Fang, conservations are on-going - I believe he is the owner of the manufacturer of Warsun products. Jury is still out - there may be hope, he's listening and talking still.

leaftye
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I have my fingers crossed.  Thanks for making the effort. They have a lot of potential and they're almost there except for drivers, but that's a problem we should be able to easily fix on our own thanks to the driver wizards here.

The low mode should be lower.

Tom E
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I give up - seems hopeless. He doesn't seem to want to address the issue. His clear sarcasm in his replies to me tells me he's not taking me seriously. I won't be communicating with him again. Maybe someone else can have better luck. I thought blfdemigod was pursuing a custom light with him, but I don't see updates on that for a while (http://budgetlightforum.com/node/31711), but maybe he's had better luck than me. Sure hope this so called Warsun BLFX doesn't have the same indentations in the pill top.