Plenty of speculation in that post Jason for someone that prefers not to speculate.
Good that you tell me what I know, because I’m so forgetful and all. I do remember that I have smooth, OP, and Optic Convoy lights, boosted 35’s to 4 cell 35’s, MT-G2’s to 70.2’s. Do I need to put a White Flat in an L6 and see what the reflector is actually capable of? Nobody said this light had to have an XHP-70 variant in it… my little L2’s can sure blow away what this Sofirn light does, I know that.
As I’ve said, I paid for a Sofirn SP70 and it’s on the way, the speculation will soon end.
Conducted an experiment. Cut the emitter shelf in an L6 to fit a 32mm MaxToch MCPCB, cut a copper heat sink to solder one of RMM’s 20mm drivers into to run a White Flat at 5.5A from 2 cells. In the L6, tested with OP reflector and clear polished reflector, the OP did 69Kcd, the mirror did 335Kcd. I know, I couldn’t believe it myself, ran the tests multiple times, but there it is.
I just stuck some Sofirn 4000mah 21700’s in there and they fit. The cells do stick out about an inch but it all screws up ok. The flashlight works fine but I would think the cell size is too big and will strain the springs. The cells were fine when they came out. No damage.
Tom, I even cut the flat out of the OP reflector and did some shaving to get it fitted to the large MCPCB using the lathe. Everything was dialed in, the beam looked really nice but of course no real definition to the hot spot with the OP reflector. It looked really bright, I was expecting at least 200+Kcd, but 69 was ridiculous! I actually meant to keep the OP reflector in it, but then tested the mirror finish one and the difference was so radical I just had to leave the mirrored one in place.
These measurements were at 5M, it might prove out somewhat different at a longer distance but of course it’s a bright sunny day out at the moment.
I'm sure someone could explain it, but would love to hear from Enderman on it, or maybe djozz has a good explanation. The white flats are highly throwy of course, but maybe has something to do with the low lumens output, too many lost photons.
Just got home, and sure enough - got the SP70! Looks great, big springs of course, probably to allow 26650's to 21700's. For 2 cells, it's a big length to adjust for. I am suspecting, Dale you are right bout the reflector's shape, leading to less throw, bigger hot spot. I got an L6 (or 2) and an old S70S to compare.
Update - First Impressions:
Yep, I'd have to agree about the relative large hot spot - seems about the same as my L6 OP w/XHP70 and old S70S OP w/XHP70. Hard to say but the OP treatment is roughly bout the same as an L6, maybe worse. The center flat area is OP's while on the L6's with OP reflectors, it's SMO. It's unexpected to see such a large hit spot for such a wide reflector I.D. The spill is clearly wider than the L6 and S70S - also expected for a shallow reflector.
Hard to tell for sure but looks like the LED sits fairly deep down so maybe there's some improvement to be made there. The glass looks untreated, but they didn't claim it was AR coated.
The reflector ID looks bout the same as the HL MT07, but I'm sure my MT07 blows this SP70 away with it's SMO/deep reflector, sliced&diced XHP70.2, and tweaked driver.
Tom, do you think the SP70 beam profile is an excellent GP light? I got the feeling from the parameters that it would be, just a great all around light to have out on a walk or doing night work like clearing a storm felled tree or something like that. I could be wrong, happens more than the other way around.
The L6 came out with an XHP-70 though, so the OP is designed to merge that donut hole. Perfectly understandable there. The 70.2 works much better in a mirror finish reflector than the 70 does, so the differences come through modernization of the emitter.
And yes, I can see where an orange peel surface would just kill the 821 lumens of this White Flat. Nature of the beast and all that.
Been a while since I fiddled with these big single XHP70/XHP70.2 lights. Didn't even realize the MT07 now has an HQ driver in it, does like 368 kcd with the sliced XHP70, think it's not a 70.2, not sure yet.
Yes - it has a wide spill, not a great thrower but wouldn't expect it to be. Nice though it's high amps. I was able to open the bezel, no glue but needed a strap wrench with some decent force (wood clamped the head). The MCPCB is hugh, looks like 40 mm, and i was able to poke thru a LED wire hole and loosen the driver - probably mildly glued, not sure because couldn't remove it without de-soldering the wires. Got charged up blue LK 50A cells now so will take some numbers.
UI is ok - didn't try ramping yet, but modes work the nice way - click to ON, click OFF, press&hold to change modes.
It really depends on the cell. Flat tops that make contact in series should work as long as they aren’t button top. Clearance is tight and they fully compress the springs, so officially they aren’t recommended. It’s a case by case situation.
DB Custom wrote:
Plenty of speculation in that post Jason for someone that prefers not to speculate.
Good that you tell me what I know, because I’m so forgetful and all. I do remember that I have smooth, OP, and Optic Convoy lights, boosted 35’s to 4 cell 35’s, MT-G2’s to 70.2’s. Do I need to put a White Flat in an L6 and see what the reflector is actually capable of? Nobody said this light had to have an XHP-70 variant in it… my little L2’s can sure blow away what this Sofirn light does, I know that.
As I’ve said, I paid for a Sofirn SP70 and it’s on the way, the speculation will soon end.
I really don’t understand why you say stuff like this. I’m saying “Huh?” to every sentence.
djozz wrote:
63mm -> 73mm reflector diameter should get you 34% higher kcd.
So like 100kcd to 134kcd and 200kcd to 268kcd? This sounds quite reasonable.
Since my L6 does 172kcd, if the SP70 had a SMO it could theoretically be capable of 230kcd.
I think Dale’s expectations were a 75% increase which seems too much in my opinion. Plus it seems Sofirn used a heavier OP than they said they would, based on the reports coming in. This is a bummer, they said they were going with a very light OP.
Tom E wrote:
Just got home, and sure enough – got the SP70! Looks great, big springs of course, probably to allow 26650’s to 21700’s. For 2 cells, it’s a big length to adjust for. I am suspecting, Dale you are right bout the reflector’s shape, leading to less throw, bigger hot spot. I got an L6 (or 2) and an old S70S to compare.
Update – First Impressions:
Yep, I’d have to agree about the relative large hot spot – seems about the same as my L6 OP w/XHP70 and old S70S OP w/XHP70. Hard to say but the OP treatment is roughly bout the same as an L6, maybe worse. The center flat area is OP’s while on the L6’s with OP reflectors, it’s SMO. It’s unexpected to see such a large hot spot for such a wide reflector I.D. The spill is clearly wider than the L6 and S70S – also expected for a shallow reflector.
So you think the hot spot is about the same as the OP L6 and not 20% bigger? The same size is better than bigger, but in theory it should be a bit smaller. It can be really hard to determine hot spot size with OP reflectors.
Tom, I think you have a lux meter, can you measure the candela?
—
Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights
SMO is 160kcd 800 meters
Light OP is 148kcd 769 meters
I think the heavier OP was 127kcd 712 meters.
These are Sofirn’s numbers using their 4000mah 21700 batteries. They have a machine that tests lights which may or may not be as accurate as what I use, which is a LX1330B lux meter at 10 meters.
I do hope their machine is reading a bit low. It has read low on most if not all of their lights.
(Interesting that 127kcd to 160kcd is a 34% increase)
—
Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights
About the white Flat in the SMO/OP L6 reflector: I have done a few initial experiments a few years ago that show that throw difference between a SMO reflector and a OP reflector is highly dependent on the size of the die: you tested it with smallest die possible, while Sofirn tested it with about the largest die possible.
See the few tests that I did in my (unfinished/abandoned) reflector thread: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42458
Right djozz, I tested the L6 with the small die intentionally to see what kind of throw the L6 may be capable of. I know when this 70 remake started it was supposed to target throw and power, a hot rodded factory light for the BLF demanding. But then things stalled and Sofirn took up the gauntlet and the ideaology changed along the way somewhere. I am probably closer to the original project because I have assisted the modding of the original prototype. Still, Sofirn made some body design changes that I liked even if the reflector wasn’t where I thought the whole plan was targeted to be. Compromises I guess.
It’s looking a lot like the entire project has been a long way around towards building a different L6.
Been a while since I fiddled with these big single XHP70/XHP70.2 lights. Didn’t even realize the MT07 now has an HQ driver in it, does like 368 kcd with the sliced XHP70, think it’s not a 70.2, not sure yet.
Yes – it has a wide spill, not a great thrower but wouldn’t expect it to be. Nice though it’s high amps. I was able to open the bezel, no glue but needed a strap wrench with some decent force (wood clamped the head). The MCPCB is hugh, looks like 40 mm, and i was able to poke thru a LED wire hole and loosen the driver – probably mildly glued, not sure because couldn’t remove it without de-soldering the wires. Got charged up blue LK 50A cells now so will take some numbers.
UI is ok – didn’t try ramping yet, but modes work the nice way – click to ON, click OFF, press&hold to change modes.
Your MT07 has an XHP70.2 and you also installed a smooth reflector in it. 296 kcd with the stock reflector.
Just a beast of a light, made extra beastly. Hopefully the SP70 can put out the same big beam at 400 yards and deal with the heat a bit better.
In other news Simon wants to make an XHP35 L6. He wasn’t happy with the results with the current reflectors and is getting another one made.
The “25A” 26650s I ordered arrived. I’m very skeptical of the “25A” rating. IRs seem really high. Mine are between 0.15ohm and 0.25ohm. 0.25ohm seems VERY high for a “high drain” cell.
The “25A” 26650s I ordered arrived. I’m very skeptical of the “25A” rating. IRs seem really high. Mine are between 0.15ohm and 0.25ohm. 0.25ohm seems VERY high for a “high drain” cell.
What brahd are they & where did you get them??
—
You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant
.................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................
The “25A” 26650s I ordered arrived. I’m very skeptical of the “25A” rating. IRs seem really high. Mine are between 0.15ohm and 0.25ohm. 0.25ohm seems VERY high for a “high drain” cell.
What brahd are they & where did you get them??
Sofirn HD 26650 factory rated at 25Amps.
I hope someone is able to take tail Amp measurements with these batteries.
Black L6 shown: XHP70.2 P2 3B, SMO, fully modded w/TA 30 mm driver, NarsilM, 17.9 amps, 9110-8230 lumens, 195 kcd
11.9A on the cyan Liitokala is not bad. We know the 70.2 has the potential for more. Maybe the FET or the wires are a bit too high resistance?
194 kcd is more than Sofirn’s measured 160kcd with light OP. If the texture is heavy, then the candela is even more impressive as they only measured 127kcd. Nice.
The texture does look pretty heavy.
You got 195kcd out of your black L6? Hmm, I can’t remember if I got the same, but decided to sacrifice a little in order to get a nicer-looking hotspot. My notes are showing 172kcd. Still close, though. I always go by what looks best as opposed to outright throw numbers.
—
Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights
Just tried a pair of GOLISI 4300's, solder blob'ed one. Got 14.5 amps, think about 205 kcd, same relative bump in lumens. The LED wires look decent, think about 18 AWG, but the double springs might have some loss's compared to bypasses I would use. Got slightly more amps on a pair of 25S charged to 4.21V - about 15 amps, but they would probably drop fast.
I wonder if we can ask for a differently designed reflector for the BLF edition?
Can anyone confirm 21700 cells fitting?
Plenty of speculation in that post Jason for someone that prefers not to speculate.
Good that you tell me what I know, because I’m so forgetful and all. I do remember that I have smooth, OP, and Optic Convoy lights, boosted 35’s to 4 cell 35’s, MT-G2’s to 70.2’s. Do I need to put a White Flat in an L6 and see what the reflector is actually capable of? Nobody said this light had to have an XHP-70 variant in it… my little L2’s can sure blow away what this Sofirn light does, I know that.
As I’ve said, I paid for a Sofirn SP70 and it’s on the way, the speculation will soon end.
Dale, tell robo to get a Maxtoch X Pro and tell us about it
My SP70 is out for delivery, should be wait'n when I get home
63mm -> 73mm reflector diameter should get you 34% higher kcd.
link to djozz tests
Conducted an experiment. Cut the emitter shelf in an L6 to fit a 32mm MaxToch MCPCB, cut a copper heat sink to solder one of RMM’s 20mm drivers into to run a White Flat at 5.5A from 2 cells. In the L6, tested with OP reflector and clear polished reflector, the OP did 69Kcd, the mirror did 335Kcd. I know, I couldn’t believe it myself, ran the tests multiple times, but there it is.
I just stuck some Sofirn 4000mah 21700’s in there and they fit. The cells do stick out about an inch but it all screws up ok. The flashlight works fine but I would think the cell size is too big and will strain the springs. The cells were fine when they came out. No damage.
Bonum commune communitatis.
Yarp.
Dale - Ok, I'm wait'n to hear the amateur optical physicists explain this one... Actually I'm kind of serious on this.
Tom, I even cut the flat out of the OP reflector and did some shaving to get it fitted to the large MCPCB using the lathe. Everything was dialed in, the beam looked really nice but of course no real definition to the hot spot with the OP reflector. It looked really bright, I was expecting at least 200+Kcd, but 69 was ridiculous! I actually meant to keep the OP reflector in it, but then tested the mirror finish one and the difference was so radical I just had to leave the mirrored one in place.
These measurements were at 5M, it might prove out somewhat different at a longer distance but of course it’s a bright sunny day out at the moment.
I'm sure someone could explain it, but would love to hear from Enderman on it, or maybe djozz has a good explanation. The white flats are highly throwy of course, but maybe has something to do with the low lumens output, too many lost photons.
Just got home, and sure enough - got the SP70! Looks great, big springs of course, probably to allow 26650's to 21700's. For 2 cells, it's a big length to adjust for. I am suspecting, Dale you are right bout the reflector's shape, leading to less throw, bigger hot spot. I got an L6 (or 2) and an old S70S to compare.
Update - First Impressions:
Yep, I'd have to agree about the relative large hot spot - seems about the same as my L6 OP w/XHP70 and old S70S OP w/XHP70. Hard to say but the OP treatment is roughly bout the same as an L6, maybe worse. The center flat area is OP's while on the L6's with OP reflectors, it's SMO. It's unexpected to see such a large hit spot for such a wide reflector I.D. The spill is clearly wider than the L6 and S70S - also expected for a shallow reflector.
Hard to tell for sure but looks like the LED sits fairly deep down so maybe there's some improvement to be made there. The glass looks untreated, but they didn't claim it was AR coated.
The reflector ID looks bout the same as the HL MT07, but I'm sure my MT07 blows this SP70 away with it's SMO/deep reflector, sliced&diced XHP70.2, and tweaked driver.
This is indeed a huge difference, this is how i explain this:
Although the OP reflector is light OP for the XHP-70 it is very heavy OP for the White Flat.
The smaller the led the bigger the difference is going to be between a SMO and a given OP reflector in throw.
Tom, do you think the SP70 beam profile is an excellent GP light? I got the feeling from the parameters that it would be, just a great all around light to have out on a walk or doing night work like clearing a storm felled tree or something like that. I could be wrong, happens more than the other way around.
The L6 came out with an XHP-70 though, so the OP is designed to merge that donut hole. Perfectly understandable there. The 70.2 works much better in a mirror finish reflector than the 70 does, so the differences come through modernization of the emitter.
And yes, I can see where an orange peel surface would just kill the 821 lumens of this White Flat. Nature of the beast and all that.
Been a while since I fiddled with these big single XHP70/XHP70.2 lights. Didn't even realize the MT07 now has an HQ driver in it, does like 368 kcd with the sliced XHP70, think it's not a 70.2, not sure yet.
Yes - it has a wide spill, not a great thrower but wouldn't expect it to be. Nice though it's high amps. I was able to open the bezel, no glue but needed a strap wrench with some decent force (wood clamped the head). The MCPCB is hugh, looks like 40 mm, and i was able to poke thru a LED wire hole and loosen the driver - probably mildly glued, not sure because couldn't remove it without de-soldering the wires. Got charged up blue LK 50A cells now so will take some numbers.
UI is ok - didn't try ramping yet, but modes work the nice way - click to ON, click OFF, press&hold to change modes.
It really depends on the cell. Flat tops that make contact in series should work as long as they aren’t button top. Clearance is tight and they fully compress the springs, so officially they aren’t recommended. It’s a case by case situation.
I really don’t understand why you say stuff like this. I’m saying “Huh?” to every sentence.
So like 100kcd to 134kcd and 200kcd to 268kcd? This sounds quite reasonable.
Since my L6 does 172kcd, if the SP70 had a SMO it could theoretically be capable of 230kcd.
I think Dale’s expectations were a 75% increase which seems too much in my opinion. Plus it seems Sofirn used a heavier OP than they said they would, based on the reports coming in. This is a bummer, they said they were going with a very light OP.
So you think the hot spot is about the same as the OP L6 and not 20% bigger? The same size is better than bigger, but in theory it should be a bit smaller. It can be really hard to determine hot spot size with OP reflectors.
Tom, I think you have a lux meter, can you measure the candela?
Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights
Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.
I dug up Sofirns measurements from an older post.
I do hope their machine is reading a bit low. It has read low on most if not all of their lights.
(Interesting that 127kcd to 160kcd is a 34% increase)
Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights
Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.
About the white Flat in the SMO/OP L6 reflector: I have done a few initial experiments a few years ago that show that throw difference between a SMO reflector and a OP reflector is highly dependent on the size of the die: you tested it with smallest die possible, while Sofirn tested it with about the largest die possible.
See the few tests that I did in my (unfinished/abandoned) reflector thread: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42458
link to djozz tests
Right djozz, I tested the L6 with the small die intentionally to see what kind of throw the L6 may be capable of. I know when this 70 remake started it was supposed to target throw and power, a hot rodded factory light for the BLF demanding. But then things stalled and Sofirn took up the gauntlet and the ideaology changed along the way somewhere. I am probably closer to the original project because I have assisted the modding of the original prototype. Still, Sofirn made some body design changes that I liked even if the reflector wasn’t where I thought the whole plan was targeted to be. Compromises I guess.
It’s looking a lot like the entire project has been a long way around towards building a different L6.
Some comparitive shots:
Initial Measurements:
ON two blue LK 50A's at 4.19V:
For comparison
Clear L6 shown: XHP70 N4 1C, 4.7A, 3790-3700 lumens, 73 kcd
Black L6 shown: XHP70.2 P2 3B, SMO, fully modded w/TA 30 mm driver, NarsilM, 17.9 amps, 9110-8230 lumens, 195 kcd
Your MT07 has an XHP70.2 and you also installed a smooth reflector in it. 296 kcd with the stock reflector.
Just a beast of a light, made extra beastly. Hopefully the SP70 can put out the same big beam at 400 yards and deal with the heat a bit better.
In other news Simon wants to make an XHP35 L6. He wasn’t happy with the results with the current reflectors and is getting another one made.
The “25A” 26650s I ordered arrived. I’m very skeptical of the “25A” rating. IRs seem really high. Mine are between 0.15ohm and 0.25ohm. 0.25ohm seems VERY high for a “high drain” cell.
You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant
.................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................
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That’s a good result for throw you could get more by slicing the dome. The amperage is down a fair bit to what it should be?
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Thank you for those measurements! 194Kcd is decent enough for me.
Life’s Questions/Answers here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp “So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.” Romans 14:12
Sofirn HD 26650 factory rated at 25Amps.
I hope someone is able to take tail Amp measurements with these batteries.
Life’s Questions/Answers here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp “So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.” Romans 14:12
/\ . Thanks cncyana.
You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant
.................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................
Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$
Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart
Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help??? TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal
11.9A on the cyan Liitokala is not bad. We know the 70.2 has the potential for more. Maybe the FET or the wires are a bit too high resistance?
194 kcd is more than Sofirn’s measured 160kcd with light OP. If the texture is heavy, then the candela is even more impressive as they only measured 127kcd. Nice.
The texture does look pretty heavy.
You got 195kcd out of your black L6? Hmm, I can’t remember if I got the same, but decided to sacrifice a little in order to get a nicer-looking hotspot. My notes are showing 172kcd. Still close, though. I always go by what looks best as opposed to outright throw numbers.
Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights
Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.
Just tried a pair of GOLISI 4300's, solder blob'ed one. Got 14.5 amps, think about 205 kcd, same relative bump in lumens. The LED wires look decent, think about 18 AWG, but the double springs might have some loss's compared to bypasses I would use. Got slightly more amps on a pair of 25S charged to 4.21V - about 15 amps, but they would probably drop fast.
I think overall with these results the light lives up to our expectations of what we wanted. Only thing left is how is the UI overall?
Light Reviews
Cheap Flashlight Durability Test
Ekoras R7 review
Multiband radio review
YouTube Reviews
Astrolux FT03 Luminus SFT40 Beamshots
Luminus SFT-40 test output + candela tested
Ekoras S21 Review
Scratch builds
6th Annual Old Lumens Scratch build entry
7th annual Old Lumens scratch build entry
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