Tesla's new 4680 - We're gonna need a bigger flashlight

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manithree
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Tesla's new 4680 - We're gonna need a bigger flashlight

https://electrek.co/2020/09/22/tesla-4680-battery-cell-bigger-power-energy/

Quote:
Tesla has unveiled its new battery cell, now known as the 4680, at its Battery Day event.

The new cell is bigger, offers six times the power of Tesla’s previous cells, and five times the energy capacity.

That’s gonna make for some big torches. Unless it doesn’t.

richbuff
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Quote: Quote:

Tesla has unveiled its new battery cell, now known as the 4680, at its Battery Day event.

The new cell is bigger, offers six times the power of Tesla’s previous cells, and five times the energy capacity. /quote

That’s gonna make for some big torches. Unless it doesn’t./quote

 

I'll take six 46mm x 80mm Li Ion in a 18 x 90.2 flashlight, please, thank you.

Rev 22:15

manithree
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richbuff wrote:

I’ll take six 46mm x 80mm Li Ion in a 18 × 90.2 flashlight, please, thank you.

I like the cut of your jib.

I’ll take a single-battery soda-can Q8 v2.

I wonder what the capacity and max current will be? They say 6x and 5x, but 6x and 5x of what?

iamlucky13
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manithree wrote:
I wonder what the capacity and max current will be? They say 6x and 5x, but 6x and 5x of what?

I watched part of the presentation. They stated it as 5x capacity and a 6x current of a 21700 cell. As a reality check, note that a 46mm x 80mm cylinder is 5.5 times the volume of a 21mm x 70mm cylinder.

They indicated one of the important aspects of scaling the power output with the capacity and the volume is the surprisingly difficult task of improving the electrical connection between the “jelly roll” and the battery can. The current method of using a tab at the end of the roll presents electrical and thermal problems. They’re working on a folding method that allows the edges of the entire roll to contribute area to the electrical connection, so that the tab size and length of the electrode roll don’t become major restrictions on current flow.

I gather that this is part of why they say the new optimal size is 46800, where as a few years ago, they said the optimal size was 21700.

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Tab-less looks amazing. I would surmise that 2170 was optimal for the old tabbed design. But 4680 is optimal for the tab-less design.

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4680 is no different from soda can lights. I demand a remake of Courui D01

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manithree
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iamlucky13 wrote:
I watched part of the presentation. They stated it as 5x capacity and a 6x current of a 21700 cell.

I’d take a 20Ah 210A 4680. Actually, I would prefer a 25Ah 60A , but not by much. That’s a lot of runtime for moonlight mode.

manithree
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By my crude measurements, the q8 battery compartment is a little too narrow, and, obviously, too short for a 4680. And I, for one, welcome our new soda can light overlords.

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I am less then an hour from the TESLA factory, I got to go visit! My cousin has already been and he said there are no words to describe just how big it is. I personally think there would be a big market for the new cell in flashlights. Could you imagine the runtimes! Yeah, everything would have to be reconfigured but that’s future technology and I am ready Silly Yeah, I’ll take a duel cell single emitter flashlight please, running a 1000 or whatever lumens till the cows come home Silly 5 times the energy with 6 times the power!! Shocked

Doug S.

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They said a lot of impressive stuff, but the 5x, 6x isn’t one of them. The volume increase is probably about 5x to 6x.

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46mm diameter seems too big even for a soda can light. Usually when they advertise 5x capacity, it is likely 4x capacity in reality and if that is the case, this is not a break through at all.

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Unless my quick calculation is wrong, 4×18650 has ~51 mm or more (depending on the maximum supported cell diameter). 46mm is great for soda can lights.

JamesB
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Is this cell ever gonna be available outside tesla ? It seems it’s paired with their own technology and plan to integrate and ramp up battery production in house, and Tesla is already limited in prodcution by the amount of batteries they can buy so i don’t see them making it available to retaillers.

Will Panasonic or Catl ever produce a dry electrode tabless 4680 or even a 4680 remains to be seen.

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The volume increases by 5,48, the capacity only by 5. So the main improvement might be in how these can be stacked together Or maybe the capacity is larger at high/low discharge rates?

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Agro wrote:
Unless my quick calculation is wrong, 4×18650 has ~51 mm or more (depending on the maximum supported cell diameter). 46mm is great for soda can lights.

Should be sqrt(2*18^2)+18, about 44 mm.

Smile, you cannot kill them all.

Agro
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Unheard wrote:
Agro wrote:
Unless my quick calculation is wrong, 4×18650 has ~51 mm or more (depending on the maximum supported cell diameter). 46mm is great for soda can lights.

Should be sqrt(2*18^2)+18, about 44 mm.

I stand corrected.
So it’s larger than 4×18650 but only marginally and carrier-based designs are larger still.
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Without play :

3×18650 : 38.8mm
4×18650 : 43.5mm
3×21700 : 45.4mm
4×21700 : 50.7mm

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Yeah, good replacement for 4×18650.

Smile, you cannot kill them all.

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The MF01 tube has 45mm inner diameter, otherwise in length it would have fit inside, too bad it could have been a good host to mod this in.

manithree
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SKV89 wrote:
46mm diameter seems too big even for a soda can light. Usually when they advertise 5x capacity, it is likely 4x capacity in reality and if that is the case, this is not a break through at all.

46mm is only slightly bigger than the interior of a Q8.

And if it really is (and I realize that’s a big if) 5x the capacity, it’s smaller than 4×21700 for 5x the capacity. Maybe not a revolution, but, it sounds like a good evolution. Based on what they said, it’s possible the real breakthrough they’re hoping for is in price, especially once production ramps up. I wouldn’t complain about that, either, if it trickles down to us.

It looks like the most common 21700 used by Tesla today is a 48G 4800 mah 9.6A. So, 24 Ah, 57.6 A max current is the target.

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New and exciting indeed… However i’m wondering how practical those cells will be for flashlights. Only big and chunky lights may take advantage of them and they’ll weight quite a bit.

Another issue i see is handling those big and heavy cells. Just dropping one on a hard floor may damage it and create a situation. A fully charged 48600 may be used as a grenade then… Evil

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We’re gonna need a bigger charger too!

You are a flashaholic if you are forced to come out of the closet, to make room for more flashlights.

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Agro
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patmurris wrote:
New and exciting indeed… However i’m wondering how practical those cells will be for flashlights. Only big and chunky lights may take advantage of them and they’ll weight quite a bit.

Another issue i see is handling those big and heavy cells. Just dropping one on a hard floor may damage it and create a situation. A fully charged 48600 may be used as a grenade then… Evil


Yeah…it’s close to my thoughts as well.

4*18650 lights often went for compromises to increase safety, largely related to users putting different cells in different orientation.
Convoy invented a protection disc that increased flashlight length and weight for a little bit more safety.
A number of makers made use of battery carriers which increased weight, length and diameter for another bit of safety.
Volume of a carrier is going to be similar to that of a 46800 cell so these are really close in size while 46800 offers so much more energy than high-capacity 4*18650 with IR that bests high-current 4*18650. If it doesn’t deliver 60A continuous and 100A for 20 seconds I’ll be disappointed.

46800 is safer in that it does’t have the risk of some cells being inserted with correct polarity and others reversed.

At the same time there’s so much energy inside…and due to low IR this can generate so much power….that any damage or short related hazards are going to be much larger.

Maybe not larger than with 8*21700 lights that are out there but still…

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If it is approx 5x the current 48G 21700 capacity, then compared to a 4*18650 battery carrier;

VTC6s: 4 * 3.7V * 3Ah = 44.4Wh

46800: 5 * 3.7V * 4.8Ah = 88.8Wh

It may not exactly meet Tesla’s “5x capacity” claim, but even so, it would nearly double the total energy capacity of current 4×18650 lights.

However, the voltage of the single cell will be limited at 3.7V, whereas the 18650 carriers can be configured to 1S4P, 2S2P, or 4S1P, giving a wide voltage range for lots of different emitters more capable of higher powers.

So a moderate to high-power light using this cell would either need to take the Emisar ‘loads of parallel XPLs’ approach (or the 3V XHP50), or start using some serious boost driver tech.

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Yeah, with 300W that these should be able to deliver even GXB100 is not powerful enough. At the same time this driver would suddenly become so much more useful. Wink

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JamesB wrote:
Is this cell ever gonna be available outside tesla ? It seems it’s paired with their own technology and plan to integrate and ramp up battery production in house, and Tesla is already limited in prodcution by the amount of batteries they can buy so i don’t see them making it available to retaillers.

Real Tesla ones? Not until cars using them are totaled. I suppose we may see a small number of them slip out one way or another. It has happened with other Tesla cells.

21700 cells of various quality appeared not long after Tesla started using 2170.

I predict we will see Chinese 4680s sooner or later. They may not be as good as the Tesla ones.

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Cells from totaled cars and mediocre cells from small makers are not enough to drive adoption.
We need good cell makers to start making them like they did with 21700.
Now cordless tools won’t be among the drivers for this. I’m concerned whether this will happen. If it does – we’ll end up with much better pop can lights.

JamesB
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Andrew_Debbie wrote:
21700 cells of various quality appeared not long after Tesla started using 2170.

I suspect that it’s is because Tesla had Panasonic manufacture most of it’s cells, and the 21700 were exactly the same manufacturing process and chemistry that the 18650, with the 4680 things change a lot, tabless cells, dry electode and cell to pack (no module) plus Tesla’s will of vertical integration and projections of in house battery production ramping orders of magnitude.

Will Tesla ever buy a 4680 from an external battery manufacturer is the question, and if not, will other manufacturers still want to copy this new form factor ?

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People who are building new chargers should stop thinking about 77mm, and start thinking about 82mm or even 85mm with protection.

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This cell sounds like a nice upgrade for the BLF LT1 lantern Smile

One 46800 should give the LT1 70% extra runtime, based on the Tesla plan. Even if Tesla falls a bit short, 50% extra runtime should still be within easy reach.

ChibiM wrote:

People who are building new chargers should stop thinking about 77mm, and start thinking about 82mm or even 85mm with protection.

I’m beginning to wonder whether a mainstream charger manufacturer might make the jump to having a common charging module for the electronics and the controls, with plug-in cell holders in a range of sizes, like people already do with hobby chargers. New cell size? Sell a new cell holder, no charger redesign required.

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