Orbtronic Clarifies 18650 top button question

LED Flashlights – General Info
1

Hi all,

Just now I got a nice informative email from Orbtronic about the floating top button on their 18650’s. It is refreshing to have a seller that really listens to their customers!

I got permission to paste it here. I resized and put the photo on Photobucket.

Rich

Hi Richard,

Since you are our customer, and I saw your post at BLF I would like to explain a few things.

First, button top is welded. If you apply strong side force it will move, and still stay welded.

Flex strip wire is used to attach top button to the Panasonic’s original button (multiple welding spots) - so again: even if you apply force contact will stay intact.

It is much easier (and cheaper) to weld directly, but because of (smaller then usual) diameter of Panasonic’s original button direct welding only will result in very poor welding (spot) contact - easy to break, and become loose.

Redilast, CCustoms… all the same. AW knows that, and they decided rather not to instal button at all.

Batteries are fine if used properly.

Guy from Amazon realized what he did and removed his review. He was pushing battery in wf-139 - Charger known for not accepting any Panasonic protected battery.

Here is a picture of top button assembly so you can see what I am talking about (welding directly would be much cheaper, and easier, but button will “fell off” on any sideforce applied- especially when short bay chargers are used):

Regards

Sal

2

Great service indeed!

3

Glad I already have plans to buy some from them in july for my bday :slight_smile:

4

New generation of higher capacity batteries are not compatible with some old chargers (Ultrafire), and old flashlights.

Those chargers (and flashlights) are made, and “tailored” for at that time mostly used Sanyo, and Samsung 18650 cells-shorter (below 65mm), and smaller in diameter.

User should either upgrade charging equipment (flashlights), or stay with cells 2600mAh (and lower).

5

Thanks for the info.

6

No problem.

Research before you buy is the keyword here.

Unfortunately 18650 world is complete mess, because no standard is set for protected 18650 cells.

7

I am very sorry for that, but this information is nonsense! In order to weld directly on the cell you would need a very good welding maschine, know-how and special tools. Otherwise you would cause damage to the cell. It is much cheaper and easier to assemble the protected battery in the way this supplier is doing (Like Ultrafire, Solarforce etc. do)

I don´t know, why AW and Redilast would not assemble with Button-Top, can just assume that it is a little bit more expansive (around 1USD)

8

AW is most expensive battery on the market. For the money they charge customer should expect gold plated button, but there is no button. Big compatibility issues.

There is no Redilast battery without button in existence. Redilast choice is wide button design so it cannot move. Some compatibility issues.

Look at the picture again, and then think what is easier to make (assemble):
Direct weld,
or
Cutting a piece of strip wire, and welding it at both sides.

Cheapest approach is what AW is doing - no button at all.

9

I've never understood why AW doesn't make any button top cells. If he did, I would actually consider buying some.

10

Why? When there are now so many comparable cells at much lower price (Orbtronics, Keeppower, Intl Outdoor) why pay extra for essentially the same thing?

11

+1, AW’s are only good for rich newbies who can’t be arsed to do some research.

12

Orbtronic 3100mAh 18650 , AW, and Redilast are using the same Panasonic NCR18650A cell. Performance is the same.

You choose what positive end design is best for your flashlight.

13

They may be the same when comparing mahIan's charge curves but not when you want the proven track record and a well tested protection circuit. I have not bought any yet but most likely will be purchasing three for my DRY.

14

First you can buy the button top already with the strip wire, so all you would have to do is to weld this thin wire to the cell using a low-cost welding maschine. If you would do that in China, or else where in the far east, your working cost would be low as well.
It is much more complicated to weld a thick button top to the cell without causing a damage. You would need a very good (strong and fast) welding maschine and a special tool to keep the button-top in a stable position. Furthermore you would need special electrodes for that.

I didn´t test Redilast so far, but I have seen enough of AW´s products. I agree with people, who are not satisfied with their price policy…however they reached such a position on the market that almost everyone knows them.

15

You can see Redilast - test is not needed for seeing button top design.

What is you explanation for AW not having top button?

They do not have expensive welding machine or?

Different Orbtronic 3100mAh 18650 top button designs ( some CGR18650CH too):

Any similarities with Redilast button top?

16

I can not answer that with a 100% certainty, I can just assume one of the following reasons:

1. They have a very good source for Flat-Top?
2. They have enough market-share and they don´t need this effort?
3. They don´t want to invest extra money in tooling etc. for a button-Top battery?

Btw…I am not saying at any point that the Orbtronic battery is not good (I didn´t test them so far), but I am saying that their statement: “It is much easier (and cheaper) to weld directly, but because of (smaller then usual) diameter of Panasonic’s original button direct welding only will result in very poor welding (spot) contact – easy to break, and become loose” is let´s say it gently a little bit strange!

With this kind of assembly you would not be able to pass a UN-Test for the battery…might be a reason for Redilast or AW not to use the button-Top as a solution?

About the Panasonic NCR18650A - if you have the right PCB and you use this cell…in most of the cases you can not do a lot wrong - especially for consumer needs.

17

Talking about proven track record.

If you compare AW, vs. Orbtronic, Redilast, CK… AW is not doing that good. Bad batch? I do not know.

This is one excellent online battery comparator (by HKJ):

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650comparator.php

pretty useful.

18

Do you have a link for the UN-Test, what's it about? :)

Do you happen to know a couple of commercially readily available cells which pass the UN-Test?

19

I assume he is trying to say UL.

If not,
I did not know that United Nations have battery test department.

20

UL-tests are usually done with bare cells, no protection circuit. They short cells, heat cells, cool cells, overcharge/overdischarge cells, penetrate them and abuse them in almost any way. Usually there is smoke or leakage at some point, but as long as nothing explodes, its fine.

Oh btw, I think Orbtronic's statement is true. I mean, we have already someone confirming that welding to a smaller flat top is more complicated and requires expensive tools, maybe none of the current cell-packers has them and so the choice is flat top or the Orbtronic-solution.