“Overall, I am really convinced (and have been for a while now), that all these mods don’t mean Jack. When you take a led and go from 2.5 - 3 amps, up to 4-5 - 5 amps, you really can’t see a noticeable difference, so why are we doing it. All we really did was to make the light get hot faster and stress all the components more, but we didn’t really accomplish a noticeable, (to the human eye), difference…”
At the cutting edge the law of diminishing return kicks in, any incremental progress in performance has a muh higher cost, here heat, battery and possibly components life, etc…
I think he could be right, especially in some occasions.
Other occasions you will see a more noticeable difference, especially when it comes to throw.
But I also believe that it's more about numbers than anything else. Some things are just not noticeable as much as we want to...
Is this related to your eagletac light?
Not much point in seriously overdriving an emitter on aluminium mcpcb. This has been well documented by several graphs, by several people, and followed up by a bunch of peoples lux numbers..
(Based on known factors, in the thread Old-Lumens was quoted from, there was no reason the modded light should appear any brighter than the stock light visually...)
In general, there is certainly a large difference between the same XM-L2 at 2,5A and an XM-L2 at 4,5A on copper. Not only on paper, but also to the eye. What some consider large, may not be large to others though..
So far I have avoided buying a light meter because I still want to focus more on visual improvement, tint, beam, CRI and not get caught up in lux. As long as I know the emitter gets what it is supposed to get in amps, and my eyes sees what it likes, Im all good.
I often go on night walks with 2-4 lights. I try to find the weak points and strong points of certain lights.. I compare the stock lights with modded lights. Normally Im dissapointed by the stock light, then I mod it. If Im not happy with it for some reason after the mod, I mod it again... If there was no visual gain in the mods, I would never been into modding.
I spend more money on mods than on lights, because to me its worth it, visually and often in terms of UI too. And lets not forget the fun of it! :)
As far as more stress. Get the right switches, springs/spring mods and drivers/driver upgrades and there is no way to notice the added "stress". Have you ever heard of a nanjg 105C beeing less reliable if you add a couple of 7135s?
If an LED losses several thousands of hours of life, it will still basically never die because its worn out due to "stress" the way 99,999% of us use our lights. If it dies early its most likely due to another error, like zero thermal paste, a bad connection to the pill, user error by using batteries with more voltage than should be used, etc..
In terms of budget light a "modder" will normally avoid typical shortcomings many budget lights have, like zero thermal paste under the emitter....
There are of course certain things that could endanger reliability and emitter life.. Some (extreme) resistor mods, and some extreme emitter currents 6A++ (to XM-L2 on copper), and de-doming that all can make a light less reliable and add a lot of "stress". Batteries may also see decreased lifetime if pushed very hard. But if you don't see the difference between say a light that had 2A to an XM-L and a light that have 5A+++ to an XM-L2 on copper, then you need your eyes checked...
Some are into modding to be at the top of the game, see the newest and brightest, test various emitters, etc, etc...
Some are into modding because they want to have a unique light. A one of a kind, just like the person wanted it...
Modding can be a lot of things. Not only more current and more "stress and heat", but a nicer tint, higher CRI, more throw, more flood, a more "balanced beam" for a certain type of use, higher efficiency, better battery life, nicer UI, increased reliability, making an old light new, getting the type of light you want with the batteries you want, etc, It can be be all of those things or one of those things.. Its about modifying a light to become the right tool for a certain job, or just making a light as you wanted it to be...
And if you or someone did a certain mod that had no measurable or visible gain, as long as your head thinks its awesome, it is awesome... ;)
my 2 cents.. :)
In general, I agree with Old Lumens.
A light’s output is only useful to us when spread over a 2-dimensional surface, so the perceived output is actually a function of the square root of the OTF output. That means that to double the perceived light, we need to quadruple the output.
There is a further problem that the efficiency of the LEDs we use peaks at a relatively low amperage. Pumping in more amps gives more light, but each extra unit of current gives less benefit than the previous unit.
Combining those two issues leads to some interesting calculations. Getting 20% more current to the emitter gives more than a 20% increase in heat (with all its management issues), and less than a 20% increase in output; beyond 3a through an XM-L, the lumens gain for an extra 20% of amps is about12% … and the square root of that leaves us only about a 6% gain in perceived light.
So there is indeed a point where the returns fall off rapidly. The most powerful torches, esp the most extremely-modded ones, end up like 1970s supercomputers, which were basically an exercise in plumbing. More processing power could be added, but the problem was how to get rid of all that heat. Supercomputers developed not through better plumbing, but through more efficient processors, which generated less heat.
Big leaps in light output will need more efficient emitters. I forget the exact figure, but I think the current LEDs are converting only about 15% of their energy into light; the rest goes into heat. That’s a lot better than incandescent bulbs, but still little more efficient than the long-available fluorescent tubes. (Yes, fluorescents are ugly and produce horrible light, but they are remarkably efficient).
Don't over think it, it's simple, we do it because it gives us a feeling of accomplishment and makes us feel good.
Although I know where O-L is coming from when he said that, I think it is worth it in my case.
I don't have a stock DST at the moment to make a apple to apple comparision, but this will make the point. The mouse out (Stanley at 54kcd) is more powerful than a stock DST (45kcd). The mouse over is a DST dedomed and 7amps at close to 300kcd. 5 amps would be a little less difference, but still very noticeable.
Isn’t it as much finding out IF you CAN do it and not necessarily IF you SHOULD do it?
I have a AA Maglite OL modified with a Nichia LED and an Optic that puts out a great circle of light on one 14500 battery. With a polished bezel and end cap it also look great.
There is also, “Because I can.” and “I put that together.” 8)
O-L is in between two phases of the modders cycle. He likes doing the smaller lights and using NiMh cells, but he’s done it so many times there’s no joy in it anymore. But he’s resisting stepping to the next level.
Also, when you mod lights that you don’t use, it’s easy to lose track of the gains. O-L doesn’t use lights. He mods them for us. We see the difference, every day, because we’re flashaholics and we find ways to use our lights just because we really want to. So the bumps and gains are obvious to us, but not so much to the Master Modder when they all start feeling like the same ol thing.
Come on now Justin, fire up a AA Mini Mag and walk around the pond. Then grab one of your mods and take another walk. Massive difference. Even if it’s not used for anything more than finding a rubber band that fell under the desk. Easy to see with the brighter LED. A softer beam profile, rid of the rings that are so distracting and annoying, and even the pure CRI of Nichia, the white of a good XP-G2 2B or the area illuminating MT-G2. We push the limits the manufacturers are afraid to push, and rightly so, because we want more than the average Joe settles for.
Build a triple in a minimag and be amazed. Done that? Do it some more and share the wealth, cause that’s not a light that can be bought at the store and if that’s all you do forevermore, chopped minimags with triples, you’ll forevermore sell every one you can make. We love em, we love you for doing em. And that, my friend, is what it’s all about.
And because I never know when to stop…my Dad will be 85 next month. His vision isn’t what it used to be. A simple bump in output from 2.8A to 4A is a huge difference to him. When you can’t see well to begin with, more light makes a much bigger difference. For non-flashaholics, acquiring a modern budget led seems like a leap into another world, stepping up the performance of that cheap light makes it seem like yet another leap, one they’re proud of as it stands out against the commonplace.
Any budget improvement is worth doing. Any budget non-improvement is also worth doing if you learn something from it. At minimum you will at least learn that you didn’t learn anything and then you’ll stop going any further before you go frustratingly bananas.
My supreme motto which sometimes I even break due to impatience is:
Change only ONE thing at a time.
(Face it. You gotta be a little nuts to begin with if you’re into flashlights. But some are still in denial. :bigsmile: )
because… why not? 
its fun.
For me, 2 things that I really enjoy are electronics and machining. So modding flashlight brings the two together. I also enjoy wowing myself and other people with the lights I build.
The only problem is the next lights needs more lumens or more throw than the last.
I also start with pathetically dim lights so anything I do is a massive improvement.
I almost posted this in the other thread, but seeing this again I have to say that OL’s eye produces some really beautiful flashlights.
Soooo, my only response is is follow your eyes, Justin!
I loved that OL added some extra functionality to the 1D as he did, I was waiting for him to add a 3*AAA adapter (AAA to AA adapters already exist to work in the AA versions so he might not have seen the need for extra expense on his part)
Personally, I love a variety of different lights with different functionality and I especially love see individual lights improved by expanding their versatility. Another example of this I bought into was the E1320 UF2100s - great set of light modes from very high to moonlight.
I see no reason OL can’t pioneer a new path in other aspects, like run time, functionality, and other unique improvements where his eyes take us.
As for me, I lust for an OL visually improved ImA4Wheelr-style DST. And I have a similar lust for another L3 L10 nichia that has a more versatile UI with OL flames (truthfully, almost any light with those flames).
I only posted OL’s words because I thought the same thing when I first joined BLF. Watching you all slave over these things for hours for small amounts of ‘more light’ seemed odd to me.
Now I get it. :party:
I love the satisfaction of taking a $15 light, adding $10 in parts, and getting something better and more practical than many $80 or $120 lights. This means brightness in true dark areas, the modes I want, the quality I want, the feel/portability, etc. I also get a lot of satisfaction from building custom mods for people in real-use scenarios: night fishing/boating, security work, out on the tarmac, S&R, etc.
From pocket rockets, zoomies, to big throwers - just about every light can benefit from some custom tweaking, even for just tint and efficiency. I get enjoyment from the before/after measurements, so I've gotten the light meter early on to verify and help in tweaking.
Have you ever seen an Solarforce L2m Shorty? Made for a single 18350 cell and a P-60 drop-in, it’s diminutive and many consider extremely limited from the get go by it’s drop-in. 4” long right?
Just put together a Noction copper Triple with XP-G2 R5 2B emitters in direct drive off of an AW IMR18350 for a start-up of over 7A and ~2000 lumens. Not exactly a small amount of light. With 3 ounces of copper in the head, it feels solid, is very impressive and it was fun building it with hand tools, the O-L way. Copper sinked Triple Noctigon
I’m proud of it, and that’s why we do this is it not?
Super impressive, sir!
Whether it’s making stuff that doesn’t exist, or helping existing lights achieve their potential, you guys are amazing!!
It’s all Justin’s fault.
Thanks, appreciate the kind words.