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RC - For the win. Changed it to normal and it’s back.
Wonder how it got turned off?
Thanks!
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No problemo. 
Sorry I missed this conversation. I haven’t worked for a speaker company in decades but there are a few tricks for speaker setup that are universal. I’ll skip the mid and high range issues and placement comments.
Subs have speaker mass, power requirements, cone inertia adding to delay relative to smaller drivers, and sound waves that are conducive to reflection complications. Placement in a small room with no sound deadening further complicates this, as well as going for the smaller speaker/cabinet combo with more power, as the cone is now heavier and the box has less “cushion” for the audible bass frequencies. Then there’s the overlap if you don’t have a system setup that is meant for the combination of each speaker component. It’s not just about sheer volume and frequency ability, but interaction of the bass waves with the higher frequency drivers to deliver a realistic replication of the performance (movie, band, landscape, etc.).
Having the sub further away sometimes helps with wave development, but in a small space, a slower/heavier cone and a further distance from the higher level frequencies (as well as bass wave reflections) can really muddy up the sonic quality. Studio spaces often use much smaller subs than a stadium and have sound deadening on the walls, for example. Having the sub closer might help with matching the sub’s driver response to that of the mid/high drivers, but again you have to experiment with placement. Watching a movie showing a vast landscape with multiple subjects have different stereo or 3D effects for 4+ speaker setups than watching a stand up comic. Listening to a solo guitarist versus an action movie scene or music band might also give you an idea of how much deformity your speaker setup is giving you.
If the speaker has adjustments for phase, this can help. Back in the day, you could find components that would let you add or remove time delay to individual channels… but I think it was too much for the average consumer… especially since the added cost was often for a set it and forget it setup. Also experimenting with having the subwoofer face you, face the wall, in a corner away, to the side, or facing, distance from listener, and adjusting high ranger driver’s bass cut off (and/or low range driver’s upper cut off) can give you different sonic experiences. You’ll have to decide which placement/distance you like better.
At the manufacturer I worked at decades ago, I would often test their smallest system for spaces larger than a studio (e.g. small bar with stage) and their smallest sub setup was 4x15" subwoofers. I used an acoustic guitar solo which would more accurately replicate a live performance. The cones were lightweight, but the cabinets were very large. They had separate digital and analog time delays for their tweeters, midrange, and bass drivers so that the cones’ start and stop response times were similar. They would also install the system for the related environment (spacial orientation to listeners, reflections off of walls, etc.).
Since I wrote this much, if you made it this far into the post I’ll add to make sure your tweeters are aimed directly at the listener (unless they’re horn style), AND that the left and right tweeters are equidistant from the listener. The further away the tweeters (generally speaking in a small environment) the larger the sound stage for stereo applications.
I’ll give you an example of what really opened my mind to speaker setups when I was a teenager working in the speaker factory. My boss gave me a CD of a band to test their equipment. The speaker setup was 4x15" subs, 2x15" mids, and very large horn tweeters… and I was in a warehouse. With just the stereo setup, I could close my eyes and hear the singer 6’ in front of me, the guitarist 8’ in front of me and 6’ left, the bass guitarist 10’ in front of me and 5’ to the right, and the drummer 15 feet in front of me and 3’ to the right (subjective and actual measurements may differ). I then listened to an acoustic guitar solo and the plucked strings sounded and felt like someone was playing a guitar in front of me, not a mesh of sound replicating a guitar solo.
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I appreciate the continued info and advice, my shoulder is killing me though so I’m going to wait a bit before doing in depth replies. (not happening today 
) The fine-tuning of my system also needs to wait until I’ve finalized some room arrangement decisions. I’m probably adding some bookshelves to raise my speakers to the right height–I don’t want to start something with the landlord over screwing some brackets into the wall. So currently, the plan is to get something from IKEA this weekend. The spacing of the front and rears will affect available sub locations and chair placement.
For my Monolith sub, the 0DB setting is located at roughly 2-o’clock so during my initial Audyssey calibration sub gain was at -6 or lower. Oops! I turned up the sub a bit and Audyssey set it to -10db on the AVR which is more in line with expectations and recommendations. Based on forum chatter on other sites, the Monolith subs require being turned up a bit–it’s just how the gain works. Either way, there is definitely no issue with power if I need it. I have plenty of power on tap. I’ll be sure that I have negative gain on the AVR to avoid distortion when I finalize the setup.
The real issue is configuring the sub to sound right in the mix. I’ve never had a full-range system before and I’m struggling a little with the fine line between audible bass and excessive bass. I’m fiddling with it because I can’t help myself, but everything I do is right now kind of temporary until I have integrated all of the speakers I plan to add and finalized the positions.
Nevertheless, I’m learning things about the sub and the AVR that should help in the long run.
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There were a couple of nasty processing settings turned on that I was unaware of and eliminated. (“Restorer” and “Loudness control” AKA “artificial bass boost” and “dynamic range crusher”)
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The sub sounded delayed and I discovered that Audyssey screwed up the distance setting and manually tweaking it improved the sound
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I can use my tablet and the Denon app to change AVR settings during a movie without leaving the video stream of the film
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You can have two speaker presets which should allow easier switching between stereo and surround. Doesn’t seem like crossover settings are unique to the speaker presets though…wtf?
Someone correct me if I’m wrong. The crossover settings required for Stereo and Theater seem diametrically opposed to each other because a film LFE channel might include bass above 80 that I want to play, but when playing stereo I want to avoid playing sub frequencies higher than the crossover point of the fronts to avoid doubling up on frequencies. I can’t understand why the speaker presets don’t also include crossover presets.
In theory, once you find the correct crossover point so that the sub integrates properly with you other speakers in your room, you should not really need to change it. It should work for music or movies equally well. When the system is balanced, it is balanced! You may want to play with relative levels (to taste), but not the crossover frequency.
Keep in mind that there is a frequency setting for LFE (low frequency effects… i.e. explosions and such)). But this setting only effects the separate LFE channel that is contained in movies. It is independent from the crossover settings. I think it is typically set around 150 Hz. Which means that information in that dedicated LFE channel below 150 Hz will be sent to the sub, regardless of if you may have the speaker crossovers set to say… 80 Hz. Again. that setting only comes into play when there is a unique LFE signal present (so, movies only…in general).
Does the LPF really just apply to the LFE channel? I was thinking that it was a hard limit on the frequencies the sub would be allowed to play under any circumstances.
Since the crossover for the Fronts is a gradual roll-off and they still play a little below the crossover point, I was thinking that the AVR might pass the sub a gradual roll-off that includes some frequencies above the crossover point. My theory was that the LPF could be used to block those residual higher frequencies.
As to when I might want to have different crossover settings, I was just thinking that since my speakers actually do fine 50hz and up, I might set them to 60hz crossover for music to retain more of their original sound. Then I’d use an 80hz crossover for movies where the AVR needs to power more speakers, thereby offloading more work to the subwoofer.
BTW, I just found out that according to the manual, a Speaker Preset should include crossover settings. Weird, I wasn’t getting that while fiddling around. Will have to experiment further.
Yes. It only effects the LFE channel in 5.1/7.1 soundtracks. (In fact it IS the .1 in the name)
The crossover has no direct bearing upon the LFE channel and the LPF of the LFE has no bearing on the crossover setting.
IOW, it does nothing to Stereo (music) tracks.
BTW the LFE channel should only be authored with content up to 120 Hz (sorry for saying 150 Hz above) So generally the default setting is fine.
BTW, even if your speakers can produce 50 Hz (specs) that is likely the -3dB point and they drop like a rock after that… adding lots of distortion as they go. Remember the high pass filter is not a brick wall, If you set it to 80Hz the main speakers will still be producing significant output at 50 Hz. But you are taking the load off of them and putting it on a SUB which is (or should be with a good one, like what you have) designed to produce those frequencies cleanly. It also reduces the load on the amp quite a bit because those lower frequencies use significantly more power to reproduce than higher frequencies.
You can play with it, but there is a reason that most people use 80 Hz… or higher for smaller mains. At under around 100-120 Hz, most humans can’t localize sound, so generally 80 to 90 Hz or so is fine.
Again, once you get the system balanced properly there should be no reason to change crossover frequencies based on the content you are listening to. Though many do tweak the sub trims (levels, not normally the XOVER) to taste, differently for music or movies. Being that they are more interested in getting slammed with movie sound tracks versus “Sonic Purity”.
Though this is all generalities, it is based on lots of experience and science. The bottom line is that you are happy with the sound. But if you know what is going on, it makes it easier to have a good starting point.
BTW, I found this:" Audyssey Labs January 09, 2011 09:11
The LPF filter for the LFE channel should always be set to 120 Hz. Any other setting is wrong. This filter has nothing to do with speaker roll offs and crossovers. It is a filter that is applied only to the separate LFE track found in 5.1 (edit: OR 7.1) content. That material is authored to have content up to 120 Hz.
The crossover filter are a separate matter. They consist of a highpass and lowpass filter that is applied to the signal sent to each speaker. They are determined after the in-room measurements find the roll off points of each speaker."
From Audyssey
Does that clarify things a bit?
One last thing (unless you ask)
The .1 LFE channel naming convention IS confusing because of the way systems are named. A typical 5.1 setup means to most people L/C/R, two surround sides, and the 1 means a subwoofer.
The .1 LFE channel is a complete other animal and should not be confused with the typical 5.1/7.1/5.1.4 nomenclature.
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Nice! Always good to see official documentation. I wish I’d have thought to check the Audyssey website lol, I was scouring the Denon product manual and there is a lot of “what” and a little “how” but not much “why.”
Thanks!
Yeah, if you search a bit, you will find that the “LPF for LFE” setting confuses lots and lots of people… 
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Yea sounds like the setting is pretty situational. The feature needs a disclaimer too since Low Pass Filter sounds all-encompassing and it seems natural that it would apply to all input rather than just a specific channel.
So I got my shelves yesterday and placed the speakers on top of them. I sat back and thought, “Wow! They are in exactly the right spot!..to be rear surrounds 
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My original plan was for a 5.1 setup but now I’m doubting that these positions are going to be good for left and right surrounds. I’m kicking around the idea of going 7.1 and putting something mid-room to be left and right surrounds. Of course, the reason I wasn’t doing that in the first place is I didn’t want to have to put the speakers away when I wasn’t using them or have them in a place I could accidentally bump into them.
This is such a rabbit-hole 
Stick to an 80 or 90Hz crossover (at the minimum). Lower and you will be missing the freqs. you bought the SW to reproduce. Lower crossover won’t gain you anything - other than less bass in the 50-60Hz range.
Even those with full range speakers crossover in this range.
The AVR setting for SW distance is often different from the actual value.
This is due to delays in the signal processing in the SW.
Usually the setting chosen by the AVR is correct to set time alignment with the SW and the main speakers.
And yes, the rabbit hole is deep…
Play with what you have some more before chucking more money down it.
The jump from 2.0.0 to 5.1 is huge compared to 5.1 to 7.1.
But if the bug has got ya’ Well…
All the Best,
Jeff
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Where did you end up putting your new beast?
How does the bass sweep sound now?
Currently it’s on the front wall to the left of the Left Front. That’s probably temporary because I would rather it was in a corner and the Fronts ought to be another foot apart anyway. I’m hesitating because I want to be absolutely sure about the final placement before doing the work of unhooking and moving all the electronics.
List of concerns with placement as it stands:
- Subwoofer is taller than the bottom of my TV so it doesn’t fit under it unless I adjust the height which I don’t want to do
- Subwoofer is taller than my standmount speakers so it can’t be placed directly in front of one, and may actually be causing some reflections due to it’s current proximity to Left Front
- Putting the subwoofer in the corner will displace the Right Front and I’ll have to shift the entire setup left in order to maintain space between Fronts.
TBH it never occured to me how important the height of the Sub might become. 20/20 hindsight and all that. On one hand I want to get right down to listening to all this gear I spent money one, but on the other I’m looking at rearranging my entire room to suit one activity possibly to the detriment of others. So I’m taking it slow and thinking a lot about what to put where.
Forgot to mention about the sound! Currently the Sub is very impressive for movies but doesn’t seem as well integrated for stereo use. Every time I listen to it I get it a little closer to right.
But its no use getting too picky until I finalize speaker placement I guess.
BTW, I read about how DSP processing can lead to subs having longer delays and being set to longer distances on the AVR. In my case it sure seemed to be more accurate after I manually tweaked the distance though. It bothers me that my only options are to trust Audyssey (which at this point I don’t really) or just go by ear. I can see why some people hire professionals to do this stuff. Definitely not in my budget though
Once you “think” that you have finalized placement, look into REW. All you need is a microphone (IIRC ~$100) and a computer to run the software. Then you have objective measurements to go by. The software is free, the documentation extensive, and there are a few very active discussion groups to help along the way. BTW, it even has a room modeling mode where you can load different scenarios for placement and get predicted results. This last part you can run even without a mic.
If descending the rabbit hole anyway, REW is definitely worth a look.
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