Dedomed LED Tints Compared: XP-G3, XP-G2, XP-L

Yeah, I’m running mine at about 6-6.5A…
Do you have more info on this osram LED?
I need to be able to buy it on a copper star, and I need to know what driver to use for it, if you have any leads that would be appreciated.

Also, I was planning on buying some S4 XP G2s, you’re suggesting that the S3s will be better even though they are lower binned? Do you know if the S3 ones from MTN electronics are the old XP G2s?

Check djozz's test on the OSRAM:

He said it’s worse than an S4 XP-G2 though :confused:


Add old S3 and S4 binned here that were build up to 10 month 2015… That are better emitters than old R5 or S2 ones…

Your Osram is also very poor emitter for single cell FET drivers and therefore they have zero value in my use.

Djozz tested them and they are not as good as old G2 emitters.

Not that I would not like to have emitter that will kill old S4 2B (2015 edition) in performance. If someone knows bring them on :slight_smile:

[quote=luminarium iaculator]

The problem here is that you are always making general conclusions for everybody even though you use the LEDs in unregulated single-cell lights. I understand where you a coming from, but when you say that an LED is bad, you are only refering to FET-driven single-cell lights. I don’t like this configuration at all and there will be others like me.

Only regulated lights are in any way comparable (and even with these there are multiple variables).

Here is the most important thread regarding luminance in the German TLF forum from member sma, who is an expert on the subject. He has gone to painstaking effort to measure the Luminance of different LEDs as precisely as possible. He also also included many other light sources for reference. I know it is in German, but that shouldn’t really matter too much. To understand the values just look at the measurement units in the column names which are written in [Brackets]. “Strom” is Current, “Leuchtdichte” means luminance and “ohne Dom” / “kein Dom” mean de-domed. The XP-G2 which he used in this table is an old style XP-G2 R5 from 2012. It reached a maximum of 200cd/mm^2.
Later on he measured an XP-G2 S4 (2015) here and it was actaully not that bad (he only measure at 3A, so one needs to extrapolate the value for higher currents, problem is that we don’t how high this XP-G2 would go).

He has also not yet measured the Osram Black Flat himself, but another member of the forum has done this here. It reached 250cd/mm^2.

My secret tip for single cell FET-driven lights would be to try to find a way to successfully de-dome the Osram Square Gen3 or Nichia 219C (of course the 5700K 70CRI version). These LEDs have a very low Vf and are very efficient. I can’t guarantee anything, but it could work.

The Driver,

Yes I am referring to FET single cell configurations only cause I use such configurations exclusively. And I really mentioned that several times in different threads and themes. And yes they really all suck compared to old XP-G2 S4 2B that disappeared from market. I don’t see problem here… It is mine conclusion… imho and ime :slight_smile:

And I know that there are many scientist and experts here. I respect them, and I read their reviews and talk with them over PM… Theory is important but must be applied in practice.
So when I swapp emitters in mentioned light configuration and put’em on light meter I clearly see without any science analysis that certain emitters suck for certain configuration. So even redneck like myself can tell without any science analysis that that is not it anymore…

So when I talk about things that I tried: 219C no matter if you de dome it or not is also not suitable for single cell fet drivers cause It will draw a hell lot of current so it will die in couple of minutes. Now adding qlite driver(2.8A version) and 4 or 5x AMC7135 current regulators could solve that problem but it will still not be able to equal performance of old G2. Why? Because theory is one thing and practice is another… :slight_smile:

That why Djozz is Good in my eyes because he does theory and practice experiments. So look 219C (almost dedomed) in practice with regulated driver here

The 219C handles a single cell FET driver no problem, it does pull 8 amps or so but it works just fine. My EDC had one and now it has an XP-G3 and is about to get another 219C, all of which have pulled around 8 amps with a high drain cell. No deaths or issues.

That said the throw from the 219C with the dome on is not all that impressive for throw. Never been able to dedome one nor do I care to try again.

These latest gen LED’s do not have bond wires due to the die itself being “flipped upside down” to recycle more energy in some form (only scanned the thread that talked about it). I wounder if this is why the latest gen emitters do not throw as well or see a large improvement when dedomed.

I EDC two lights, one a single emitter and the other a quad… both are 219C lights running FET drivers. (come to think of it, I also have a solid copper MBI HF on my keychain with Nichia 219B Hi CRI emitter and the DQG Ti Spy [I think it is] as well, if it doesn’t have a 219C it needs one!)

Then again, I’m not looking for throw from these two lights as normal EDC use FOR ME does not lean towards throw all that heavily. An X6 triple or the P30 or MH20GT gets carried a lot of times as an accessory to my normal EDC lights.

In a thrower I build with the XP-G2 S2 0D or XP-L HI primarily, only sometimes using a Buck driver and two cells for the XP-G2 to get up towards 5.5A. The most throw I’ve obtained has been just shy of a mile at 645Kcd (as best I can recall) using a de-domed XM-L2 in an Intimidator.

My Nitecore MH20GT now has a 219C in it and throw is still quite surprising easily illuminating out past 100yds and doing well to 200 in a lot of cases, which is fine with me as I typically really use throw inside of 400 yds. The thing that seems to me to stand out is relevance, each of us uses a light for a different end purpose and has different requirements, so we look for a build that suits our needs. The numbers end up being of less consequence in most cases, end result being the target for real world usage. I personally use a light pretty much daily, multiple times a day in a lot of cases, and my Ti/Cu Quad EDC serves that purpose quite well. Once a week I use the throwers, walking the trash down to the road for Friday morning pick-up.

Just last night we ate supper by the light of my BTU Shocker with 9V MT-G2’s, power was out for over an hour and level 4 of 7 worked for us really well with the light doing ceiling bounce.

Some people really love the mathematics and formula’s aspects of flashlights, some people are all about the builds. Yet others use these lights in an 8-10 hour work day each and every day. To each his/her own…

The measured numbers which I linked are not theory. They were actually measured and are reproduce-able under the same conditions (has been shown time and time again).

Does it really make such a difference for you in practice when a light throws 10-20% less? That’s not a very large difference.

Concerning djozz’s post that you linked to: he de-domed a Nichia 219C 80CRI and it was only a partial de-dome. You would of course use a 70CRI 219C with 5700K (higher BIN) to get the highest possible numbers. You would also need to find a way to de-dome them chemically.

Have you tried the XP-G2 S3 3D from intl outdoor? I used one a year ago and it was as expected @ regulated 5A.

What kind of batteries do you use?

The last 10 pieces of S3 3D I got from intl-outdoor were labeled S4 3D and are the new production type, it seems that Hank started a new reel on those. I have used one in a build and it seems to tnrow a bit less (about 10) with nicer tint. That 10 seems to be due to a slightly larger die.

Thanks for the tip :wink:
10% doesn’t sound that bad actually! In practice one will hardly notice a difference.

I’m not unhappy either, especially because the tint is a bit better, slightly less green, slightly more red.

A very uncomparable comparison with a Supfire F5 (different lens diameter) modded with an old type XP-G2 S4 2B suggests 20% less throw (compensated for the lens diameter). I accept that directly because of the great dedomed tint.

Yes it makes a big deal to me when my normally 500 kcd light throws 20 or more % less. 100kcd + less throw… I can’t stand that fact or adopt cause instead of better emitters in 2016 and now 2017 from Cree we got lower performing ones… Even emitters from 2014 were better than this new stuff

Yes I did try XP-G2 S3 3D from IO when they were available and they are about 10 or more% less performers than old XP-G2 S2 1A or old XP-G2 S3 2B(which I luckily have in my stock). I don’t like de-domed tint also. But this is imo not general :wink:

But yes old XP-G2 S3 3D is much better emitter than any new production type of G2 emitters, and I would rather have that emitter than new type XP-G2 S4 2B. Good luck in finding it cause you’ll need it :laughing: And if you find good old ones PM me I’ll buy them together with you.

You could also find a way to chemically de dome 70CRI 219C with 5700K and tell us… :+1:
I will listen you… Don’t think I am not listening you :wink:

Yes I would also know how to control turbo mod on fet driver. No problem when person who knows(like most BLF members here) use modded stuff but problems occurs when you sell such lights to general people who will say: “Oh yes it really is bright for minute or two I thought it can work like that for hours, Oh it is really hot, and then they call you after few month crying that their emitter blurred or died :slight_smile:

That why I think that 4-5A draw for single cell fet light is more than enough and I can tell from mine experience that that kind of lights don’t die even when used by flashlight molesters I have to deal with.

What I was asking is if it actually makes a noticeable difference when you use it outside. In the end that is the only thing that matters. 10% is very difficult for the human eye to detect.

Could you not replace the C8 with something like a Fenix TK-35? It’s only a little bit bigger, but has 2 cells and a buck driver. With a resistor mod 4A should be possible and thus the Osram Black Flat or maybe even a “big” XP-G2 with higher currents. The old TK-35 with XM-L(1) can be had for very low prices these days (used for maybe 35:money_mouth_face:. You would definitely get longer runtimes without reduction in brightness.

If I ever see something regarding the de-doming of Nichia & Osram I will try to remember to post it here. I don’t have any problem with sharing all the information. I can’t justify spending money on this myself because I don’t really have much to gain from it.

EDIT: I thought I read C8, but what light are you actually putting your LEDs into? Why must it be single cell?

While I like to think I can detect more, the fact is that in a blind test (aka, don’t have 2 lights side by side to see the difference) I can not tell the difference in 25% change in lumens and in some cases even more.

For example my EDC puts out ~800 lumens on high with the 7135’s regulating current. On turbo it puts out around ~1200 lumens with the FET. Now that is a 50% change in output but to the eye it hardly looks brighter, maybe a 10% difference is noticeable.

Due to this I basically never use turbo, it uses over 2 times the power but gives me very little real world benefit. Same reason I generally use GA’s instead of 30Q’s. The extra from the 30q’s is simply lost in the real world even if it makes a big difference on the meter.

All that said I can understand where luminarium is coming from. People buy lights based on specs alone in most cases, so the specs are what matters and not real world performance. Thus that is what he needs to focus on to sell lights. Sad but it is the world we live in and I would do the same thing.

I mean no one would buy the SRK’s I built since they “only had 4,000 lumens” when the stock versions were advertised as having 10,000 lumens. :confounded:

When I compare lights indoors or in enclosed areas the difference between 800 and 1200 seem not much. But outside it seems more noticeable. Have you observed this to be true for you?

So TA, you carry a .22? I mean, if you can shoot it’ll do the same job as a .45, who needs all the extra weight and expense? :wink:

Edit: In a controlled consistent environment, say walking to the car in the same parking garage every evening, then more lumens probably doesn’t matter. But get out there were all the controls are out the window and more rules. Shine your silly 800 lumen light down the caves at Carlsbad, or across the Grand Canyon… oh, sorry, forgot, 800 won’t do that. Time and place, the situation at hand, is all important in determining what works and what falls short.

Perhaps you can’t really see the difference between 800 and 1200 lumens. If you have to use the light tactically, are you happy with 800? Less even because your cells are low? Or do you want 2000? Do you carry 4 rounds in your Glock, because 10 weigh more and you probably won’t ever need more than 4 anyway? Yeah, I think we know how that goes. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. More lumens.

It is a bit more noticable outside but even then it is not all that noticable by me or anyone else I have showed it to. They all think it has 2 turbo modes lol.

I carry select fire weapon that allows for the right tool for the task. :wink:

That is why I both worked on and use the Texas Avenger drivers. It allows me to have a regulated high output mode of ~800 lumens that doesn’t get all that warm and gives me a long battery life while still having that 1200 lumens in reserve if I want it, I just rarely need or want it.

Battery life is also an important factor in an EDC, when turbo will drain the cells in a matter of 10 minutes vs about 1.5 hours in high, well I think the 1.5 hours in high is well worth the minor difference in visible light.

As far as more lumens, I have some triples with 2500+ lumens that I have tried carrying and while they work great you really have to use turbo to get a usable amount of light further then 20m or so (and yu then blind yourself to see all that much further with the spill). The issue with that is heat and battery life on turbo are both dismal. Great for short bursts but I find I either need my EDC for a few seconds at a time or for long periods. The triples just don’t do well at long periods of use at ranges past a few feet.

That said there are times when I prefer a triple, if I know I will be dealing with close ranges then that is what I want.

I simply find that a high CRI single emitter with a TA driver to be the most versatile EDC I have found yet. It does everything well but nothing great, a true jack of all trades light, exactly what I want in an EDC where I never know what I will need it for.

Same reason I have moved to carrying a 9mm over a .45. I was a hardcore .45 guy for years but after seeing various ammo tests along with really thinking about things I realized I was better off with 17-19 rounds of 9mm vs 12-14 rounds on .45, plus the more compact size and weight savings is nice for concealed carry.

You are interesting guy… :slight_smile:

I clearly see 10-20% difference maybe because I really focus on distant targets, and use rifle scope in most situations. You know; I am a hunter and I sell light to hunters(light abusers).

C8? :slight_smile: Yes I did mod few of them for friends + tons of Jacob A60(I really miss that light) and similar single cell lights(UF’s) for sale but I am not fan of reflector lights.
Yes plenty of people prefer reflector based lights and I prefer aspherical builds for my hunting light(and general) configurations(50mm mostly: B158, UF1503, Dereelights DBS Nightmasters, Tiablos). Beauty of this is that I can see even tiniest emitter imperfections without any special tools. I just watch beam projection in full focus… And why not 2x cell buck driver like lets say in Dereelight Nightmaster lights? I don’t find that drivers durable(I had plenty of Deree driver fails within gun recoil) + I must use button top batteries and I really like battery in their original unprotected flat top state like samsung 30q or similar, + light is heavier and bit ugly imo.
Why single cell FET driver? I’ll give example of B158 old S4 2B modded light… More than enough runtime on turbo for most hunting situations in mine hunting environment, and if you want more turbo(turbo means 340kcd and more than 800m of throw) reload the cell after 10-15 minutes :slight_smile:
But also no problem for longer vehicle driven scans cause medium mode is still strong and at 2.2A draw enough for hour or so on 200kcd scanning(enough to 500m), and there is low mode for walking or game tracking (1A or so which can work for hours).

In mine maybe silly redneck head light has to be high intensity but with usable lux and acceptable lumen performer in ass small package possible.

And tendency is different these days (Bigger heads, multi-cell, multi-emitter, multi-head lights).

And that is ok… But Cree bring me good old G2 S4 2B back! :smiling_imp: