Do you have some suggestions for the new vapcell charger?

Batteries and Chargers Chargers
41

Some good suggestions. I really like the S4+, but it could use some improvements (don’t make it a MC3000!). BlueswordIM on here has some great ideas for a charger…

Support for 26800 batteries with charge rates up to 4-5 amps for the 6000 and 6800 mAh cells

Support for charge rates under 250 mA, like 100 to 150

Support for Hv li-ion 4.35 v and lifeP04

Storage mode at 3.6 to 3.7 volts

More accurate iR measurement…mine is about 50% higher than advertised (my Zanflare C4 charger does a lot better)

Make a separate display for each slot maybe? Ine that has all of the parameters: charge/discharge current, accumulated/discharge capacity, volts(realtime), iR

Manually selectable delta V for NiMH maybe? Some like that feature

Discharge current up to 1.5 A across all bays (fan cooling)

Keep the standard power input with the SMPS and 5.5x2.1mm connector. It’s lowering cost and works fine…don’t see a need for a $50 type C adapter.

42

This is all very intriguing! Thank you Vapcell, for listening to us. I really like how this thread is progressing. We each have different wants and needs. Most of what has been asked for has been mentioned several times for at least a decade. The key this time, will be in producing a charger that actually performs to spec through rigorous testing BEFORE releasing it into production… which is something several other manufacturers never seem to accomplish. Please… no more e-waste. Do it right the first time and sell thousands of chargers to us. Failing to do so will likely result in countless returns, disputes and bad press for your company. Xtar opened similar threads and I dont think they ever went anywhere. The MC3000 development was lead by a (now banned) sociopathic narcissistic, which reflected the end product.

43

My wish list:

1) Being able to manually set a termination voltage between 3.60V - 4.35V would serve the needs of the many. This would be particularly useful for preparing cells for storage. It takes time and effort to do it manually. Especially for those of us who own dozens of cells we cycle in a large rotation. Most of my quality name brand cells seem to come delivered at around 3.67V, so that is the voltage I charge them to for long term storage. A quick search reveals a wide rage of opinions, from 2.2-3.8V… none of which I would use as a storage voltage for the types of cells we typically use in flashlights (LCO, IMR, INR, NCR, ICR), unless stated differently in the manufacturer data sheet for a particular cell.

Also having the option to terminate at a lower voltage will greatly extend the service life of the cell, which is something I would do most of the time.

2) I will not buy a charger if there is a termination voltage variance between charging stations. Hopefully Vapcell can maintain voltage termination tolerances within +/- 0.002V. So PLEASE use quality components during construction. I will definitely pay more for precision charging that works correctly, and Vapcell could advertise this in their commitment to providing a charger built to a high standard. But the key here is that the charger must perform as advertised. 4 station chargers that show a cell voltage variation after charging of 4.21V, another at 4.20V and another at 4.19V, always get returned to the vendor. I dont have time to group my cells by termination voltage and its not something I enjoy doing. And yes, I check cell voltage after allowing my cells to rest overnight after being charged. As cells age, they begin to vary as they find their resting voltage, but not while they are still fairly new and in good condition.

3) If during your research and development, you are unable to maintain a consistent and accurate termination voltage between stations, I think there is a simple solution. Ive noticed that each station for most chargers seems to terminate at the same voltage most of the time. For example, if stations 1,2 and 3 terminate at 4.20V, and station 4 terminates at 4.18V, that will be the common scenario most of the time for that particular charger. A solution might be to included a user programmable offset to account for each station. Then the user could calibrate the variance and make them all terminate at 4.20V.

4) If the charger is capable of great precision while charging, maybe it could also report the cells resistance accurately. Again, being able to calibrate each station independently would hopefully allow a very high degree of repeatable precision.

All comments welcome!!

44

Thank you for your suggestion, which means adding a voltage regulation option, right?

It seems that only the MC3000 charger in the market has this function? Do you have any other chargers?

45

Thank you very much for your sharing. This is the first time I have seen. Theoretically, the cycle life of fully discharged and 80% discharged is certainly longer than that of the latter, but I did not expect a very significant difference

Is this the research of this website? Or can similar data be found elsewhere? It indicates that reducing the charging voltage will improve the cycle life of lithium-ion batteries. Is this principle used in many devices to improve the cycle life?

Or is it the same with other rechargeable batteries?

46

Thank you very much for your advice

If all your suggestions are realized, it is expected to be a high-end charger. The wholesale price is close to $30 or higher. The charger weighs more than 1kg. The retail unit price is expected to be $50-70. Can you accept it? and other consumers

At present, the development of new products also needs to consider the sales volume. If the high-end market is too limited, it will be a great challenge

47

Thank you for your advice :slight_smile:

Please tell me that your battery voltage control requirements are so accurate, with a difference of 2mV. What do you need to do?Personal or industrial use？Thanks Do other users have such high quality control requirements? At present, vapcell charger has not achieved such high accuracy. Which charger can achieve such accuracy? We need to learn and improve，thank you

Generally speaking, the full voltage of the battery will be affected by the internal resistance of the battery. The larger the internal resistance and the smaller the size of the battery, the smaller the full voltage, which may be only 4.17v, but the full voltage of the Samsung 40t will be close to 4.20V. The DC internal resistance of the battery will be affected by various factors. To control the very accurate voltage, some program improvements are required.

Product development has a target group. If all of them are positioned as high-end groups with noble unit prices, many consumer markets will be lost. As a businessman, this is what needs to be considered when developing products.

The cost of early-stage mold and various testing and debugging are not small expenses.

Currently, the vapcell charger is only s4+ by analysis. We will continue to learn from experience and continuously improve the quality of our products.

The battery voltage regulation function is only needed by high-end players. We will consider adding this function to the high-end charger. It seems that only the MC3000 has this function. Is there any other charger?

48

I’m sorry to tell you that vapcell’s new s4+ charger has experienced a lot of quality problems and some program design :cry: . Consumers don’t like it. We have an updated version

Mainly due to lack of early experience and technical reserves

We constantly listen to customers’ suggestions and constantly improve product design and product quality

49

Many great ideas - some very complex features asked for, too. Perhaps making two full-featured chargers would be the best approach for the market? One, like the S4+ with improvements. And another new model that is more complex like the “hobby” chargers (Sky RC 3000 and Maha Powerex MHC9000 are two popular examples with many features). I suggest two models because there are a LOT of people who simply do not want a complex charger that they have to figure out, make mistakes with, or don’t feel safe using because they can’t understand everything. But all of the configurable options for charge rates/voltage cutoff/etc are wonderful for enthusiasts to have!

I like the idea of improvements to the S4+. I don’t think there are any protected 26800 cells right now so it’s probably not necessary to account for that. But being able to take 33mm length all the way up to 85mm length would be fantastic!! If that is a challenge for spring choice or design…make it happen! :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: There are enough people in the market that still use CR123 lights and put 16340 cells in them - omitting compatibility with these small cells might be a mistake for the larger market.

Adding a storage function would be great! People who own many cells like to store them properly and a charger that can handle this task automatically is much better than trying to monitor the charge cycle and pull cells out early, or to drain them down from a full charge with a flashlight or something.

Another idea….if making springs/slots handle an extra long range from 16340 to 26800 is too hard, perhaps a 4-bay charger could use the two outer bays for the longest cells, maybe 18650 to 26800, and the two inner bays would handle something like 16340 to 18650. More parts for manufacturing, but a possible easier solution?

If a discharge function is added, something like 0.5A would be nice for testing purposes and/or smaller cells.

Keeping NiMH is important, too.

I would prefer the bulky power brick of good quality instead of using USB C and a PD wall wart charger, but either way.

It would be very nice if the display light can be turned on all the time, turned off all the time, or left in auto mode where it turns off after a short time. If there is an audible alarm, allow that to be turned on or off. Users LOVE this kind of simple user interface choice!

Except for the spring challenge these are mostly small changes/suggestions to improve the S4+ and expand its usefulness.

If Vapcell wants to do a full on hobby charger where all the settings can be adjusted and many automatic programs are included, probably fewer people would buy that model but it would be very appreciated in the market, I think, as long as it is high quality, safe, reliable, truthful, etc. (otherwise they will not buy it).

This is a great thread, Dennis…thanks for asking everyone for input!

50

Dennis, on the 26800 cells, can you share some insider information with us?

Most of us know this cell from Queen Battery (Piotr Wang Power Trading Co….I think?). We have seen two other cells with green or blue wraps (not totally sure of their manufacturer or main distributor). We have some good discharge tests on the Queen Battery model, so we know it’s a pretty nice cell. But there is a lot we do not know.

Do you happen to know who makes the Queen Battery? Are the green/blue the same? Are there just a couple factories that make these?

So far people that have the batteries seem to like them a lot (I do!). One of the problems that has stopped some from buying them is the lack of a good charger (we now have a single bay model from Xtar that seems good). The other problem has been a hiccup in availability over the last 6-8 months. And some countries have a harder time than others because of shipping costs/restrictions.

So the 26800 might become a mainstay and might become more popular, but it might not. Easier charging would probably help it succeed. Assuming the factories will still make them, and make them as decent as the Queen Battery model.

But just curious about the manufacturing and companies, if you can share anything. :slight_smile:

51

18500 – 26800 support, 90mm total length capability. I like the extra length just to keep from tearing the wrappers on any length cell. In the grand scheme of things I never saw any extra length as a deal breaker, but a bonus. Cells shorted than 50mm’s probably need a completely different lower amperage charger, and plenty of those already exist. 80% charging sounds nice for storage and extra cell life. To be honest or practical I’ve never charged a cell more than 100 times, that’s on my 5+ years duty light. However for storage to use 80% sounds nice. I’ve got a question on charging, does speed of charging also affect cell life? If 0.2c charging gives a greater cell life than say 0.5c charging then I’m a fan of slow charging. 26800 hopefully will grow in popularity. Then will hit you up for chargers on our new soda can lights powered by 46800 Tesla cells.

52

If you’re going to provide a USB-C input, do it right and not just for looks.

That means at least putting in termination resistors in the connector so a passive connection still functions, with a USB-C source, and not just a USB-A source.

And if an active, higher power delivery protocol is employed, choose the open standard designed for the C-connector by the USB IF, USB-PD, not the more limited proprietary standard that violates the spec, as one competitor has done. There really shouldn’t be a choice involved to begin with.

53

Thank you very much for your advice

We are trying to make the new charger compatible with 34-80mm batteries for a broader market. However, it is also possible to make some fast charging chargers separately, only for batteries above 18650

The storage function will be included in many analysis chargers

Ringtones will also be selected according to user preferences in the future

Two slots are used to charge two small batteries and two slots are used to charge large batteries. This is a very interesting idea, but customers may still complain. So find a way to be compatible with all batteries

Professional high-end chargers have great sales limitations. If they do not do well, consumers will not buy them. So we need to do some market analysis to understand the needs of consumers

54

Faster charging increases temperature and high(er) temps are bad for cell life, though I’m not sure if 0.2C vs 0.5C would make a meaningful difference.

But it wouldn’t hurt to have a configurable charge rate & lower cut-off voltage, overriding the default for the detected battery type. As a lot of chargers already provide, but optimally in very small increments and per slot, with the ability to create your own custom presets to later choose from. This way, power users could fine tune charging speed and optimize battery life, or repair cells that were discharged too much.
It would also future-proof the charger further, as new best-practices and methods to increase battery life might surface.

55

At present, only two companies are known to be producing 26800 batteries. At present, lithium-ion models are basically discontinued. There is even information that one manufacturer has closed down.

Maybe some distributors still have some inventory, such as QB. At present, the sales are cheap. In most cases, some surplus goods need to be disposed of. Currently, there are only some disassembled lithium ion 26800 batteries on the market

I predict that the 26800 lithium-ion battery market is not very optimistic. If a company is called to specialize in the production of 26800 7000mah lithium-ion batteries, the wholesale unit price of grade a batteries will exceed $6

At present, the price of raw materials for lithium-ion batteries has risen a lot, and large-size batteries will also be very expensive

26800 IFR 5000mAh 3.2V battery will be more marketable,

The mainstream models are 21700 and 18650. I think 21700 is more suitable for flashlight and has stronger power

For more information, you need to contact the manufacturer. I hope that more 26800 lithium ion batteries will be available to the market in the future

56

I think the standard charging current is worth advocating. If the charging current is smaller, the cycle life may be increased a little, but the effect may not be obvious. Too small charging current can not be used in many fields. Now we are paying attention to high efficiency. Users’ time is also money. For example, mobile phone fast charging and electric vehicle fast charging are very convenient to use

I use Huawei mobile phone 66W fast charging, and it is full within 30 minutes. I feel that the experience effect is much better than 5v2a

46800 is an IFR battery. Like 32700 3.2V, it is not expected to be used for flashlight or vap[e

Then the personal market is almost invisible

Professional high-power balanced charger will solve the charging problem of these batteries

What about you?

57

Dennis, thank you! Disappointing news but hopefully they will be available for a little while to come. 21700 is certainly a better cell (because they decided to make them better) but as is the 26800 does provide some benefit with much more capacity and ability to deliver current suitable for most flashlights (it is much better than 26650 cells when comparing to 21700 or 18650). But for the major markets it is not as attractive. I think it has mostly been used in R/C devices and radio transmitters until some flashlights started to use them.

Is it still worth the development cost for Vapcell to accommodate the 26800 size? I hope so. I think lots of us now have these cells and flashlights so we’ll have a need for good charging for at least another 6-10 years I would think. (Also, I guess one other advantage of long bays for 26800 is that it would fit the extra-long protected 21700 some manufacturers are selling now, like Nitecore…some with protection and also on-battery usb charging circuits.)

Thanks again…have a good weekend!

58

I work as a Product Manger/Owner (among other roles) and the proper way to develop a product is to identify a user story first. Be very careful asking for raw features. You need to ask for features, this is true. You just have to be careful as you’ll hear everything and then end up with a crazy product nobody actually wants to use (like the SkyRC MC3000).

User Story:
John has eight 18650 batteries for his different flashlights and lighting systems. He has a thrower and a flood, a headlamp, and then a bike light for himself and his family. He rotates his batteries. So, he never uses them twice in a row. When he needs a battery, he takes it out of the case to install it in a device, removes the spent battery from the device, and puts it on the charger. Generally about three batteries go on the charger at one time. He will remove them in the morning. He does this every single week.

The way John likes to charge his batteries is to use a termination voltage. When he puts the batteries on the charger, a little display animation recognizes them and begins to charge at 500ma. Perfect, however, since he charges his batteries every weekend, he sets the “termination voltage” to 4.1. Now John is happy and smiling knowing that his battery habits are good and he gets the best return on investment.

John puts the batteries on the charger, and didn’t press any buttons at all because the charger automatically ran the “Li-Ion” battery profile he created.

Charger Design:

  • Use 4 points to determine IR
  • Use a temperature sensor per battery, terminate on excess temps
  • End charging based on a configurable termination voltage
  • A battery display progress per slot
  • Battery Profiles, can be set to load and run automatically.
59

Battery Profiles:
These are super simple concepts, not crazy do anything routines. There are approximately three types: charge, discharge, and storage profiles. Three types, per battery type (Li-ion, NiMh, etc).

Li-ion Charge Profile Editable Fields:

  • Name, a user configurable name
  • Termination Voltage, 4.2, 4.1, 4.0, etc
  • Charge rate: 500ma, 1000ma, etc
  • Auto, when set to enable it will auto run when this battery type is detected
60


I have not seen this in other chargers.
It is my original idea and I offer it for you with hope it will improve our life :)