But he is untrained, unfamiliar with the weapon, unfamiliar with the holster …. if you already have a knife out , holding it above your head, getting ready to sprint at me, i already have justifiable reason to have my weapon drawn.
What i find amusing is this whole conversation is mall ninja heresy … every situation is different. What would decide the outcome of a knife charge is the thirty seconds before the charge.
I agree. It’s all mall ninja talk. Somebody mentioned situational awareness earlier. If you can be good at anything defense wise, that’s what it should be.
I think they put it thus at No Nonsense Self Defence. The best defence scenario is the one that never happens.
And if they don’t put it that way they should, and if they haven’t I claim dibs.
Takedown for $13 and
Guardfather for $18.
Oh geez.
Maybe you should start teaching classes since you are better trained than most professional instructors.
I am certainly not an expert, but I have taken many training classes as a civilian for fun (normally with one of my Glocks or ARs), for armed security (G17, shot the ICE course), as well as for the military (mostly M9, but also M16, M249, and M240B). I have received instruction from national level competitors, ex-Air Force PSD, Navy “cooks”, as well as military who ran around the AOR in civilian clothes doing snatch and grabs.
Knives are scary up close, and anyone who does that stuff for a living will tell you that. I suggest doing some reading on industry accepted training in relation to knives and gunfights.
+100
All I said was I can draw and fire faster than the stated 1.5 seconds and I stand by that. If you find that so hard to believe then don’t.
bdiddle
That is the barrier that hard work and familiarization, and forcing oneself to use common sense, can breakthrough and a major reason that I spent so much time with the knife in the 1970s and early 1980s.
The aversion to knives is similar to the one about snakes, it is what leads some people to say that they would prefer facing a gun instead of a knife.
If given the choice of how my attacker is armed, gun or knife, my answer will always be the same.
If given the choice for how I would be armed when randomly attacked, I would always choose the gun.
When deciding how to arm my wife at home, I would always choose a gun for her, rather than a knife.
The knife gives you the chance to let the bad guy know that holding that thing, and killing you with it, are two different things entirely, that he still has to defeat you in a fight to the death, a situation where winter clothes, an area rug, a lamp, the broken leg off a chair, your hands if you are the type, can instantly switch the tables, or can win the day. There is a reason that a knife isn’t a huge deal in rough bars where the bad boys hang out.
When the bad guy (even if he is old, fat, weak, stupid, slow, or unskilled) has a gun, it isn’t quite so convincing or realistic, when you tell him “OK big boy, you have a gun, but now you have to find a way to get those bullets into me.
Personally , .I’ll run before facing an attacker if I can. Arming and fighting are only if running is not an option, and I’m truly threatened.
in any attack is the element of surprise (caution - unrated/graphic scenes) :
Goodfellas (1990) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elrIcMX3yNI
Basic Instinct (1992) – http ://www.metacafe.com/watch/3247569/basic_instinct_unrated_intro/
Knock Knock(2007) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH8vBG_dGzo
The point of using a pen, a thumbtack, or anything else available is to end an attack that is already in process when you don’t have the choices you’d prefer.
the whole point of a prepared defense is when you’ve been aware of your surroundings and are still caught by surprise and finally having to deal with bad or no options … the exact situation bad folks will plan for you.
Running, taking punches, talking your way out of things … sometimes the reality one is faced with is different from hopes and dreams … those who prepare have more options - even then sometimes the planned attack can overwhelm.
That’s not exactly what’s being said…
The message in this scenario is that you are going to get stabbed, no matter what you do. Just whipping out a smoke-pole, Josey, and cracking off a shot, even a really good one, probably won’t be enough to keep you safe. It really doesn’t matter how fast you “slap leather”. If you pull up something you can hold in your hand, it’s not going to help much.
The only hope you have is to make them stop running, or get enough lead in them before they get to you (what, one, maybe two shots) so that you can get some advantage in the fight of/for your life.
That can be done , but you’ll need to think it through carefully and thoroughly, and train for it, before you can count on it to keep your blood inside your skin.
Not willing to go through the hours of evidence-based analysis and training? Don’t go where bad guys are! Easy-peasy! (Or “Easy-Josie!”)
Blinky, thank you for being civil which is more than I can say about some other comments. I totally agree with you. That is what I said here in post #67:
“Clear leather at the distances we talked about not a problem. I’ll come out and say it. I’m fast. A few years back I was pulling the trigger 200-300 times a DAY. Probably close to half of those drawn from the holster. But I’m not saying a bullet or two is going to immediately drop the assailant! ”
and here in post #79:
“There are a lot of variables like was stated earlier. There is also the fact that when an assailant is shot they don’t always go down right away and can stab you plenty of times before they drop. In general I agree with everything you’ve said. I wasn’t trying to personally attack you, just stating that there are people who perform better than the results of that test.”
People are implying I’m some sort of John Wayne and I’m not. But I can draw and fire from a normal standing position with my hands at my sides in under a second regularly. Period.
That’s all well and fine, and not abnormal. I’ve had to draw and fire 3 shots into the target in 2 secs before.
The big thing here is recognizing a threat and deciding a response while the threat is closing on you .
Timed shooting on the range is totally different.
I’m not some knife guy who thinks knives are deadlier than guns up close, but I do have a healthy respect for them.
One good slash and you bleed out. One the other hand, people have been killed with unaimed .22 LR rounds, while others have taken 18 rounds of .45 to be stopped.
+1
Hey bdiddle,
I’m a range officer at a club with almost 3000 members so I know my speed is EASILY bested by guys every day. That’s why I was so caught off guard by people telling me I couldn’t draw and fire in under 1.5 seconds. I only used timed fire because that is what is used in the Teuller report. Believe me, I don’t want anybody running at me with a knife from any distance!
I’m sorry, but NO!!! The Big Thing is recognizing and learning how to process a threat WEEKS BEFORE you find yourself in harm’s way!!! Then you spend the remainder of your time teaching your muscles how to touch the target with the front sight and how to press the trigger with that touch… Frequently!!!
In a manner of speaking, and staying strictly to the context, yes; but that’s not what range time is for. That range time is where you do the last thing I said: get your muscles to work perfectly together (Only Perfect Practice makes Perfect Permanent) so that you do NOT decide anything when the bad guy is charging you down!! You have (per Tuller) 1.5 SECONDS!!! You won’t have time to decide whether you’re justified or not, nevermind how you’re going to address the threat!
That’s because, like everyone else on this Forum, you’re not stupid. I can’t imagine anyone making any other claim about you.
Again, technically correct, but rare. So far, not one single participant in this conversation has offered a single target — as in where do you make that “one good slash” to cause the enemy to bleed out? Only then can we determine how LONG it will take an animated attacker to bleed out through that one spot.
Seriously. Take a Dry-Erase marker (or whatever you have) and a Good Friend outside. Take turns attacking and responding with that “one good slash”. Take a few turns then give yourselves a post-incident analysis. Any “lethal cuts”? Now… Given ALL those cuts, how long to bleed out?
Now you see why MOST people are “not a knife guy”. OTOH, it gets worse: Now that you’ve managed to land a death stroke on your friend, hand him the sharpie and start the clock. Fight for your miserable life, damn your eyes, your children need you!!! Now… See how many “lethal” sharpie wounds he can inflict within the time you’ve determined he has left to live. Could you survive those return cuts?
Once again, I rely on memory. There was a grocery store robbery — no I don’t remember where — where the whole incident ended with lots of gunfire and police sirens… After the paramedics were in treating the wounded, there was one cashier who just didn’t look well. Someone asked him if he’d like attention, he said “no”. Then someone pointed out the blood on his shirt, he checked and found a bullet hole — from a .25ACP it turns out — in his ARM (!!!) whereupon his brain just turned off for good and he died. He just died, because his brain believed he had to die from a gunshot wound. Darwin won that day.
OTOH, I worked construction with a fellow who would proudly tell anyone about the family of round-hole scars all over his front & back. He took a cylinder of .38spl all over “center-mass”, then chased down and beat to death his girlfriend who’d just shot him, then when the cops came, he smashed a couple of them before they could subdue him to get him to the hospital. The six entry wounds just looked like dimples, and the couple of exit wounds were very ugly.
I don’t think our comments disagree. Not all threats require or even allow lethal force as a response.
A 250LB 6’5’’ guy charging me with his fists is a different threat than a 120LB woman waving her purse at me screaming.
I guess to be more clear I should have said:
Recognize a threat.
Discern whether I am in “fear for my life” or whatever your repective state requires.
Act on that decision.
[/quote]
Interesting stories. I was referring to a guy who was actually shot through a door by a .22 LR
Tried to break down the door, lady inside freaked out and shot him without seeing him through the door. DRT.
In relavent news: Annapolis Stabbing
This happened in my old home state, where you cannot get a permit to carry until you have already been attacked previously :~
As I understand it most people who’ll attack you with knives aren’t “knife guys” either. They’re not going to try a few slashes, they’ll come straight at you, grapple with the left hand and stab you repeatedly (ten or twenty times) with the right, which is held back until the strike so you don’t get to use the movie disarming techniques. Defence against that by an unarmed person is difficult, even with training. For a person who isn’t trained, who doesn’t expect it? They’re dead.
Best bet, as already said, just don’t go where the wild things are.
I’m thinking of getting a Naithawk pen.
I also have a chance to get a Surefire Pen 2 for about the same price as the Naithawk.
So 1st question, how sturdy is the clip & how well does it work? Does it clip easily & firmly to both dress shirt pockets as well as jeans pockets?
2nd question - how long is that pen? I think it’s about 5.1 inches, that about right?
Thanks in advance.