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[Unheard]

The eyes adapt to color temperature. A cloudy day can have a light temp greater 8000. Still white. A white piece of paper illuminated by a candle appears white, too.

[Tom_E]

For me, the XPL HI 5D's (4000K) are about as perfect as it gets, with a good 351D 4000K 90 CRI coming in close. I prefer milky white over rosy tints,so I might be an exception. A good 5A tint is hard to find but they look good as well.

Ohh, here's more proof of the 2700K to 6500K: https://flashlightwiki.com/ANSI_White

[lionheart_2281]

@Tom E

For me, the XPL HI 5D’s (4000K) are about as perfect as it gets, with a good 351D 4000K 90 CRI coming in close. I prefer milky white over rosy tints,so I might be an exception. A good 5A tint is hard to find but they look good as well.

Ohh, here’s more proof of the 2700K to 6500K: https://flashlightwiki.com/ANSI_White

I agree with you, even the 5000K is a nice tint and usually my go to for NW

[cetary]

The purpose of ANSI standard C78.377-2008 according to NEMA …

“The purpose of this standard is to specify the range of chromaticities recommended for general lighting with solid state lighting…For general outdoor lighting applications and for many niche applications, chromaticities of light broader than the range specified in this standard are acceptable. This standard also does not cover SSL products for some indoor applications that intentionally produce tinted or colored light.”

It’s not the standard that defines all white light.

Basically, there’s a point around roughly 4500K to 5000K which is considered a true neutral white

That certainly isn’t mentioned in ANSI standard C78.377-2008 or its 2010 revision.

“Two larger questions with no clear answers remain that are not addressed in this revision. The first is: what is ”perceived” white, or where should the center points or curve be located for a white light source?”

[Scallywag]

@BurningPlayd0h

Oh and an anecdote. The fairly old florescent bulbs in my garage seem to be almost exactly 4500K. Only light source I’ve ever seen that seemed to be at that CCT other than flashlights.

I’ve got some good experience with commercial lighting (so, a fair bit with fluorescent tubes). The 4000K to 5000K range has historically been the most popular range for commercial fluorescent tubes. 4100K has been pretty common. A bunch of 3500K. Matching more obscure bulbs, I’ve found a lot of in-betweens for people. What was always interesting to me was the contrast in color names for different varieties of “white”: We called anything under 4000K-ish “soft white”, anything under 2700K “warm white”, 4000K-5000K was “cool white” and 5000K+ was “daylight”. I’ve also seen terms like “neutral” and “bright” white thrown around.

Also of note: a lot of fluorescent bulbs will change color somewhat as they age, in addition to “lumen decay” (which is an issue with LEDs as well) in which the light produces less light with age. In fact, the “rated hours” specifications on LED bulbs is typically a direct reference to lumen decay, wherein they predict the luminaire will produce X% (often 75 or 80) of its rated light output after that many hours. Basically anything with a phosphor will suffer this.

[BurningPlayd0h]

@cetary

The purpose of ANSI standard C78.377-2008 according to NEMA …

“The purpose of this standard is to specify the range of chromaticities recommended for general lighting with solid state lighting…For general outdoor lighting applications and for many niche applications, chromaticities of light broader than the range specified in this standard are acceptable. This standard also does not cover SSL products for some indoor applications that intentionally produce tinted or colored light.”

It’s not the standard that defines all white light.

Basically, there’s a point around roughly 4500K to 5000K which is considered a true neutral white

That certainly isn’t mentioned in ANSI standard C78.377-2008 or its 2010 revision.

“Two larger questions with no clear answers remain that are not addressed in this revision. The first is: what is ”perceived” white, or where should the center points or curve be located for a white light source?“

When light stops containing all but a narrow band of the visible section, I can’t really see it being defined as “white”. That is probably more true for lower temp vs high AFAIK?

@Scallywag

@BurningPlayd0h

Oh and an anecdote. The fairly old florescent bulbs in my garage seem to be almost exactly 4500K. Only light source I’ve ever seen that seemed to be at that CCT other than flashlights.

I’ve got some good experience with commercial lighting (so, a fair bit with fluorescent tubes). The 4000K to 5000K range has historically been the most popular range for commercial fluorescent tubes. 4100K has been pretty common. A bunch of 3500K. Matching more obscure bulbs, I’ve found a lot of in-betweens for people. What was always interesting to me was the contrast in color names for different varieties of “white”: We called anything under 4000K-ish “soft white”, anything under 2700K “warm white”, 4000K-5000K was “cool white” and 5000K+ was “daylight”. I’ve also seen terms like “neutral” and “bright” white thrown around.

Also of note: a lot of fluorescent bulbs will change color somewhat as they age, in addition to “lumen decay” (which is an issue with LEDs as well) in which the light produces less light with age. In fact, the “rated hours” specifications on LED bulbs is typically a direct reference to lumen decay, wherein they predict the luminaire will produce X% (often 75 or 80) of its rated light output after that many hours. Basically anything with a phosphor will suffer this.

Interesting, I’ve definitely seen this at my work where replacement bulbs don’t match those in the same area. You can tell which rooms’ have their lights on much more by the temp and brightness even too lol

[Quadrupel]

Blue light is bad for your eyes. The best is 3500 - 3000K below BBL

[SKV89]

@Tom E

For me, the XPL HI 5D’s (4000K) are about as perfect as it gets, with a good 351D 4000K 90 CRI coming in close. I prefer milky white over rosy tints,so I might be an exception. A good 5A tint is hard to find but they look good as well.

Ohh, here’s more proof of the 2700K to 6500K: https://flashlightwiki.com/ANSI_White

The Cree 5D is my favorite outdoor tint. It is actually very rosy, a good amoubt below the BBL from the many I tested. So seems like you do like rosy

[cetary]

I forgot to add, it looks like the standard ANSI C78.377-2008 is old; the current revision is ANSI C78.377-2017. Interestingly, within the current standard, ANSI does “define” recommended light as being as low as 2200K as seen within this .pdf. You can also read on 16 of 51 on this .pdf from Design Lights Consortium that ANSI defines 2200K, and that the 2015 standard is out of date.

[Tom_E]

That looks pretty official, updated to 2200K to 6500K. Again, maybe doesn't mean much but at least they are defining tolerances, so for manufacturers to claim compliance, there's some well defined spec's to adhere to.

[cetary]

I think we should update the flashlight wiki. It looks like they went through several revisions, and that 2008 standard is showing its age. Looks like they added 2200K and 2500K in C78.377-2015. You can read on page. 4 of this .pdf from DOE.

[Tom_E]

I used to have edit/update access to the wiki - haven't tried it though in years.

[ToyKeeper]

@ToyKeeper

@pol77

Thinking about the 2200K … Should I play it safe and go with the 3500K again?

That depends on whether you want it to be yellow or just warm white. Usually “white” is considered to be about 2700K to 6500K…

@cetary

Do you have a resource for this?

@ToyKeeper

there’s … “ANSI White” … but this stuff is really about personal preference and perception. The standard just formalizes the most common human perceptions… Not everyone prefers lights within that range, but most of the population does.
… the question of what is “white” depends on who you ask. Each person has a different center point on the graph, and different tolerances …

@cetary

That certainly isn’t mentioned in ANSI standard C78.377-2008 or its 2010 revision.

The purpose of ANSI standard C78.377-2008 according to NEMA …

“The purpose of this standard is to specify the range of chromaticities recommended for general lighting …”

It’s not the standard that defines all white light.

Yes. As I was saying, the concept of “white light” varies quite a bit with personal preference and perception. There are standards which set guidelines for the most common preferences, but they are not the Absolute Authority On All Things White, so we shouldn’t get too hung up on them. It’s just a recommendation… for someone who was asking for a recommendation.

It’s like saying a zero or slightly negative duv is a safe bet, but a positive duv is not… because most of the population prefers lighting which is on or slightly below the blackbody line. So we generally try to get “A” or “D” (below BBL) tints instead of “B” or “C” (above BBL), since it results in fewer people being unhappy.

That doesn’t mean the less-popular flavors shouldn’t be available… just that they’re an uncommon preference.

In general, LEDs in the neighborhood of ~2200K are warm enough that they’re outside the mainstream concept of “white light”. It’s often described as being yellow or orange like fire, instead of being white like the sun, so it typically falls into a different category. For example:

• Cree doesn’t offer 2200K for most of its LEDs, presumably because the demand isn’t high enough to bother. In product lines where it is offered, like XP-E2, that range is segmented off into its own specialty product class, separate from its mainstream white offerings.
• Nichia categorizes its LEDs into “White”, “Warm White”, or “Candle Color”. The candle color is specified as 2580K to 1870K.

Some people really like it… especially for electric candles and late-night bathroom runs. It’s a great option for that sort of thing. But it’s not typically considered useful for general-purpose white lighting. So it’s more of a niche product for specialty items and people with uncommon taste.

In case it provides context, a while back, we tried to measure people’s lighting preferences. There was a poll where people could rank their favorite color temperatures and LEDs, to help figure out which LEDs to offer, in which CCTs, and how much of each type to produce. Here are the results, graphed as a heat map:

[lightdecay]

For anyone interested in a below 2700K light source, I purchased this light bulb after SKV89 tested it:

Ultimate LED Bulbs - Ultra High CRI - The Honorable Quest

Waveformlighting 2400K filament light bulb CCT: 2342K DUV: –0.0032 CRI (Ra): 96.0 R9: 81.9 Rf: 93 Rg: 102 Blue Peak: 0.23 I absolutely love the negative DUV so it doesn’t look overly yellow. It is great as a nighttime light to minimize melatonin suppression. It is one of the lowest blue emitting lights I’ve measured, which is about right for the color temp but it still contains about 3x as much blue light as the E21A 2000K 9080.

Waveform Lighting Lux24™ Circadian LED Bulb - 2400K 95 CRI E26 A19 LED Filament Bulb

TR_4002.24.pdf

According to SKV89’s test it is roughly 2350K, below BBL, CRI more than 95, R9 more than 80. I like it a lot. Colors look perfectly natural to me at night. If you like it, you will probably like E21A 2200K.

[Hikelite]

@Unheard

The eyes adapt to color temperature. A cloudy day can have a light temp greater 8000. Still white. A white piece of paper illuminated by a candle appears white, too.

Absolutely.
And if you spend a lot of time at a certain color temperature outside and go fast inside at a different color temperature things can look awful for several seconds.
Flashlights are really not natural light, bad CRI, variable CCT from hotspot to spill (CREE is the master of wide CCT transition from hotspot to spill, depends on the reflector and optic of course), trained expectations, involuntary expectations, all also play a role.
Even side by side comparisons of 2 different tints cause the brain to look for color opposite (red-green, orange-blue, yellow-purple), if you have something warm that dominates with red the cool one will have the tendency side by side to look more green than it is.
If anyone studied serious works on how brain perceives color by whatever other color are around, you know things can be very tricky, not only that but not everyone has the same color depth perception as the other one, it sounds harsh but it is something unaccepted in society, the same how hearing depth varies between people and it is not really accepted.

[cetary]

There are standards which set guidelines for the most common preferences, but they are not the Absolute Authority On All Things White…

I think that’s where the confusion might have happened. I can see limited polls being used to determine preference, but I certainly would be wary of limited polls or old recommendations to determine what should be considered the scientific definition of “white light.” This report from DOE showed people preferred light with a CCT below 3000K for outdoor general lighting as a counterpoint to the poll you mentioned.

Cree doesn’t offer 2200K for most of its LEDs, presumably because the demand isn’t high enough to bother. In product lines where it is offered, like XP-E2, that range is segmented off into its own specialty product class, separate from its mainstream white offerings.

You might want to double check that…XP-G3 in 2200K. or the CMT 2890. which shows 2200K is being developed for high powered COB platforms. The manufacturer might leave a small gap between 2700K and 2200K on the chromacity charts, where there is a gap in their product line, but you can see 2200K listed with the rest of the white light emitters.

Markets take time to mature, and super low CCT high efficacy LEDs are still being developed. But to that end. in the world of 2200K.

“As customer requests for 2200K CCT increase, Evluma releases new warm color temperature option for OmniMax an LED retrofit for decorative streetlights… We began building 2200K CCT OmniMax as a custom order item,” stated Evluma’s Marketing Director Cathleen Shattuck. “We’ve seen an increase in demand for a wider range of warm CCT decorative streetlights. We are happy to be releasing 2200K as a standard option.” The 2200K model falls in between the 2000K and 2700K models offering greater CCT refinement for architectural lighting designers and municipal lighting specifiers.”

[scalpel_ninja]

Hi everyone, I’m new to this forum and placed my first order with Hank. I was wondering what the turnaround time to shipment might be? I ordered a Ti/Cu KR4 E21A 4500K over the weekend. Are the lights usually ready to go or are they hand built to order? TIA for your help!

[djozz]

Yesterday I received my KR1 from intl-outdoor. I asked Hank for a custom led, a 4000K 95CRI SST-20 that was not listed as an option, and he was so kind to make it for me. My plan was to slice the led to bring the hotspot to around 3500K and close to the BBL, and that is what I managed to do this afternoon.

The results are:
Hotspot tint at 350mA: 3510K, 98CRI, R9=91, duv=+0.0006
Hotspot tint at max : 3660K, 95CRI, R9=78, duv=–0.0033
Output at max (30Q battery, 30 seconds) 610 lumen
Throw at max (30Q battery, 30 seconds) 58 kcd

The output is very stable btw, I’m not sure what driver is used but I assume the 5A current-regulated driver that is also used for the 1mm2 White Flat? Can’t measure current easily myself in this light.

The beam is very good, with the focus perfect. Before slicing the hotspot had some slight artifacts (the focusing of the KR1 is not entirely correct for a domed led), that were completely gone after slicing.

Thanks Hank for getting the custom led done! I love the result!

[anonymous_user]

Wow I cannot believe someone else also asked for the SST20 in their KR1! I even got the same body color. Twinsies!

[SKV89]

I’m surprised the tint is still duv=+0.0006 with sliced dome. I thought Hank is using the FA3 tint. The FA3 tint should be about that duv without slice. Did you measure tint before the slice?