Expectations and reality when buying from an overseas vendor

LED Flashlights – General Info
1

I hear so much about how bad this dealer is, or that dealer is and I wanted to start a thread about how dealers in China sell, via the internet. The internet is so anonymous that we really do not know who is selling and who is buying. It's all a mystery surrounded by anonymity. We expect, (in the USA), to buy something from anyone in China and get service like we get here in the USA. Our expectations are biased by our own experiences on a daily basis from retail sites here and from big name dealers like Amazon.com. We are blind to the different world of China, where none of our standards and practices exist, but put that aside and let's see what we know.

How do dealers in China fulfill orders? Do they carry stock of the items or do they simply take money and drop ship?

A little of both. It all depends on the dealer. Please understand that first and foremost. a "Dealer" in China can simply be a person, or group of persons in an office building, taking orders for products they never handle or even see. It happens a lot. They may also be big enough to have their own warehouse and handle stock themselves, shipping right from their own location. We do not know either way for sure. That needs to be understood right away.

OK, so either way, why are there so many problems? Well, think about yourself. You decide to open up an internet shop and you decide to list 2,000 items all at once. How you gonna deal with that? You don't stock anything yourself. You have to coordinate with several hundred to 2,000 different "drop shippers", who will mail your items to the customer and you have to deal with tens of thousands of customer orders, as well as all the interaction between you and them. Now do you see how easy it is, to get totally out of control?

But, let's see how the drop ship thingy works.

The dealer looks on TaoBao or Alibaba and sees an item, from some supplier, or even another dealer. They list the item on their website and wait for an order.

Stupid us, we bite and order the "in stock" item.

How does it work?

  • First of all, the dealer takes your money. Most important is getting the money
  • Next they contact the drop shipper, who "has the item in stock". Here's where it gets hairy.
      1. The drop shipper has the item and ships it out in a few days time, to you. (all is good, but neither you, nor the dealer knows if the drop shipper sent you a good item, or a bad item, or even the correct item, until you get it 10-20 days later).
      2. The drop shipper takes their money and then realizes they do not have the item, so they tell the dealer, it's coming in shortly and they will ship in a few days, so they don't have to give back the money. This ends up being a crap shoot, because no one knows when anything is going to happen. The drop shipper probably didn't order from their supplier till they could not fulfill the order, so it could be a few days, or it could end up being a PayPal dispute, because it has taken "forever" to arrive and hasn't even shipped yet. You can see how this all goes bad really quickly.
      3. Everyone does a great job and you get your item on time and in great shape.

  • Now, let's look at a dealer who is just getting items from a supplier and is shipping the item themselves.
    1. The dealer takes the money and contacts the supplier. The supplier ships the item to the dealer via a "courier". A courier drags your item either around the block, or halfway across China, to deliver it to the dealer. The dealer then packs it up without looking at it and you get something that was scuffed, scarred, banged around and generally no good, but the dealer insists it was fine when they sent it.
    2. The dealer, supplier and courier all do right and you get a good item, shipped on time.

The best case scenario is the dealer has stock themselves, but most of them are not equipped to do that. It's the internet. They set themselves up in a small office, or in the bedroom and they cannot handle stock themselves. They just want to make money any way they can. When they get bigger, they will have more offices and girls on the phones or setting at PCs, taking orders and answering complaints, but it's still the same mess, only on a larger scale.

They will tell you they are different. They will tell you they are better. They may even believe it themselves for a little while, but after a while it all goes to hell in a hand basket. Always does.

Here's the other side of the coin. Since the internet is nothing but lies and deceit, the lies can and do, go the other way. A dealer does a good job and they send out good stuff promptly, but they still get all these "complaints" from buyers saying the item was junk, or the item was the wrong one, broken, damaged, melted, warped, not working properly, etc. It's a big problem for the dealer, as they have no way to dispute it, because anyone using PayPal can, (and believe me they Do), lie through their teeth about a good item, just to get it for free, because PayPal will Always get the money back to the buyer. It's a buyers world. Imagine how a dealer feels after a few months of that stuff. They tried to start out right, but they now see how much people lie to get free items and they just give up and adopt the policy of not taking one's word, unless the item is shipped back.

This is the other side of the big problem that you and I pay for, because some of "you and I" are thieves and liars and we want something, or everything, for nothing. It is a very big internet problem, right up there with lying dealers and suppliers.

So, what's your chances of a successful buy? It's a crap shoot, take your turn and spin the wheel. Or as Aunty would say, "Bust a deal, face the wheel"

One of the best ways to avoid this, is to create a communication between you and the dealer, Before purchasing from that dealer. Contact them and ask questions about the item, as well as how they ship and if the item is in their hands or is it a drop ship item from another supplier. Ask them how they verify quality and operation of your item before they ship. Ask them to actually turn on your item and make sure it works correctly. Create a communication line that lets them understand your concern and they will usually be responsive. It's much, much better to be proactive than reactive. Take the time to contain your "instant gratification buys" and contact before you buy. You will have a much better China experience and so will the dealer.

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Thanks Old-Lumens! Excellent post!

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Great write up

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excellent thoughts OL :slight_smile:

5

Thank you for taking the time to write this very informative post

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Well then it is much easier to understand now why I believe "Bang Good" and "Gear Best" are in fact run by no more than 2 people each, of dropshipping opium addicts living in the basement of an old Chinese restaurant. "Fast tech" on the other hand seems to carry such items probably in the same building/warehouse they work in. Oh, and I have just proven that their is a BIG difference when ordering from FT as to whether or not they will ship your order quickly or not when you name drop BLF if your notes. With GB and BG it makes absolutely no difference at all. Might even take longer till they find out what BLF means...

And ... reading below... I do not believe OL is being negative at all. He simply opened a good dialog. I think it is wonderful that we all discuss this issue we all deal with daily.

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In my opinion you are way to negative about it. The big warehouses in Chine do not have everything in stock, but only some sort of agreement with a lot of dealer/manufacturer about the items, when you order they have to collect the items, before they can ship them. Their "in stock" status is not for their own stock, but is supposed to reflect the suppliers stock and some(many) suppliers do not like a "out of stock" status, i.e. they do not set the correct status.

With the smaller dealers (or ebay) the status may often be more correct and they are often much faster to ship.

Shipping from Chine is often done by handlers, i.e. the dealer/shop do not use the postal service (or DHL/...), but uses a handler for this. I probably makes the shipping much cheaper, but also a bit slower.

The above is my experience and I do very seldom get the feeling that somebody is trying to cheat (Except the obvious). Some of this is also based on experience, I would be very surprised if a $2 usb power supply was safe and worked according to specifications and do not really fell cheated when I get something bad for $2 (Same with batteries). At the current time I would not use a USB power supply from Chine, except if it is from a big brand, sold by a reputable dealer in EU or I have checked it. I do not see it as cheating, but more as ignorance. Usual you will survive using it and nothing will burn, but the safety margin is much lower than properly approved/constructed equipment.

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Yes, I am definitely a person focused on negativity…

We are all, something.

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In my opinion that is the wrong thing to be focussed on.

[quote=Old-Lumens] We are all, something. [/quote]

After what I have seen you are rather good at making something out of nearly nothing. I.e. taking a cheap light and a few pieces of stuff, grinding, cutting and soldering a bit and suddenly you got a nice light.

10

I think he was being facetious....

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(Checking dictionary...) Not really, I believe that it makes the review threads look a bit like my personal domain and I do not like that implication, I do not like to scare people away from doing reviews just because the do not have a lot of fancy equipment. Review telling about real experience with a product are also very valuable, but they cannot be made as fast as I do my reviews (If you can control a big family it might be possible ).

The reviews that are mostly superfluous are people putting a battery in the charger and reporting that it changes to green after a couple of hours, but it they add some stuff about how easy it is to use and what batteries fit into it, the review will probably be useful.

12

Great post, OL especially for the newer members to set expectations.

OL, I am sure you remember JC Whitney, famous mail order from “Back in the Day”
Their catalog was a mish-mash of Car parts, motorcycle items, Gag gifts, some electronics, etc.
They were for sure an early drop shipper. Their descriptions were Somewhat Exaggerated, to be kind.
And when they said, please allow 6-8 weeks for shipment, they meant it. Notice the 6-8 weeks was most likely WHEN IT WAS SHIPPED, not When you got it.

So when it did finally show up and it was less than described, you pretty much had to live with it, because they already had your money, there was no taking credit cards, no Paypal, it was send Cash or Check.

Point is, I feel like I stole some of the products that I am able to order from China in the present day, ordering direct has cut out the Almighty Greedy Middleman and that puts more money back to me to buy other items, or just buy better items in the first place because of the savings.
I am old enough to remember how much these “distributors” can add to the bottom line and most of them are just cross shipping, adding little to no value. The music industry was/is famous for this. Now bands don’t need the major labels to get published. Way it should be.

When something is soo bad that it becomes unacceptable, I have Paypal covering my back.
I only follow through with refunds if the product never shows up or is genuinely defective or so damaged that they are not worth sending back.
It burns me up that some people seem to think of screwing over the oversea’s vendors as some kind of Sport.
As OL says, we all pay for that type of behavior in the end.

If a percentage were to be put on positive vs negative experiences from China, for me at least, that number would be 95% positive.
YMMV
Thanks!

Keith

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Freeme found some interesting behind the scenes videos recently, even if they are in Russian.
Any volunteers to nip over and do some English versions for us? :slight_smile:

14

You guys actually read all that :slight_smile:

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OL is pretty much spot on with his OP. As I’ve mentioned in another thread, I’ve had 100% negative experiences with DX. I’ve had mixed experiences with BG and FT. GB and some Ali vendors (like Simon who makes Convoy) have been 100% positive so far. But also, like I mentioned in the other thread, I’m getting a bit tired of waiting for 2 months to receive batteries that may or may not actually arrive. I’ve made the decision to purchase from companies like Mountain Electronics. Yes, I may pay a bit more but at least I know they’ll arrive and usually within a few days of shipping.

And I don’t think that is an unreasonable expectation i.e. I make the decision that I need a product…I pay for the product promptly…I receive the product within a reasonable time frame. So I’m going to deal only with companies that I have a reasonable expectation to deliver what was paid for in a reasonable amount of time. Mainly because a good deal that never arrives really isn’t a good deal.

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I have had good experience with both BG and DX, slow, ok often takes about 30 days to show up at my door, but never check tracking it is what it is, sometimes things go wrong with parts missing but they have so far always responded well and put things right, then it is another 30 days :slight_smile: (though to minimize risk for trouble I never buy batteries from China, always from EU)

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Great first post Old Lumen. Thanks for all that work.

Not chastising you, but the “where none of our standards and practices exist” comment might have been a bit of hyperbole. Lots of Chinese do great work and with conscientious effort. Yep, we get a dud every now and then and your explanation explains why things don’t work out sometimes. I ordered a laser recently from Won Hung Low and the tailcap was screwed up. I have to adjust it almost every time I turn the thing on. Good laser otherwise. But. . .
I’ve ordered torches from China for about 7 years and have 4 SkyRay Sodee Pop ones. Every time they’d up the lumens, I’d buy another one. And every torch still works great, from that first one that was supposed to be 3000 lumens to this last one, a purported 20,000 lumens. And the prices are coming down. That first one cost about the same as this last one, around $92. Sure, their lumens are exaggerated ( you DO have to watch out for those that exaggerate ), but I remember 10 years ago or so, the best out there was the Polarion or the Beast, with about 3000 lumens for around $2500. Now this latest beast, 20,000 SkyRay is probably around 6000 lumens and cost $92! It is an floody impressive torch, using 6 18650’s - bought from E bay.
Point is, although it goes around that “everything from China is crap”, not everything IS crap. They do have some good stuff and are pushing the envelope on cheaper prices while upping their standards - as evidenced by my 7 year old SkyRays.

BTW, Ben Wang on AliExpress of Shanghai Oxlasers, is quiet honest about his lasers (doesn’t exaggerate) , though he doesn’t sell flashlights. (some laser sellers exaggerate as well as are funny. One’s laser: “Ignites birds at 20 meters) I’m not affiliated with Oxlasers or Ben Wang in any way, but he seems to be very on top of things and will communicate well with you. I paid $10 less for a laser from him, a 200mw red and it’s much better quality than from Mr. Won Hung Low’s laser, mentioned above.

It’s all good. Happy hunting,
Roy

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Like many of us when I discovered cheap Chinese electrics and other gizmos I felt like a kid with $10 in a dollar store. I could order things I was curious about with emotional impunity, wait weeks to months, then be completely surprised when something showed up on the front porch. By then I had no idea what it even was until I opened it.
Some of it was pretty good, some was not very good, and of course some was junk. But it all was cheap so it didn’t matter. In each of those 3 categories I occasionally got something that was obviously “broken/DOA”. In every case I was able, after some wrangling back and forth, (emails, occasionally pictures) to either get a replacement or a refund. Sometimes that was not even difficult.

My most amusing one was when I got a shipment of a mess of gaudy fingernail polish (BG). It was someone’s order obviously, not mine. They really didn’t want to ‘eat it’ and tried numerous times to sell it to be for ‘very good price’, for the wife/girlfriend….whatever. I wouldn’t do that, nor would I pay for shipping it back to China, though I did offer to ship it anywhere in the USA if the real customer was here. They couldn’t find the original customer, and they finally did completely replace the order. BTW-those hoses that extend and shrink-latex tube in a nylon housing-are pretty cool but also pretty low quality.

Less amusing is cheap replacement batteries for cellphones and cameras from any source (Amazon or eBay). The originals are generally very expensive. The cheap replacements seem to mostly be of ‘Ultrafire’ quality. Trouble is 98% of the people buying them do not have any kind of test equipment and ‘don’t have a clue’. The reviews are about 80-100% worthless, and nearly never have objective information.

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We are all, something. I understood that OL was saying that all persons have some tendency in a particular direction. Some tend to be funny. Some tend to be serious. I thought OL was saying that he has a tendency to be negative, as opposed to positive in a given situation. We have heard that you should keep your expectations low, and then be pleasantly surprised when your expectations are exceeded. That is the path that I have a tendency towards. If you have high expectations of most situations in life, there will be a major share of disappointments.

I make this rambling comment because we have an international forum. In the best of situations, people will misunderstand the comments of another person, especially in a twitter type posting. The issue gets more difficult when the language and culture are different. My take.

20

Having a special needs daughter has taught me,

Hope for the best but expect the worst.

That way you are never disappointed.

Also treating it as a game helps ( depending on the $ amount), some you win, some you lose, most are just fair trade and for the rest there is paypal.

Its a hobby, could even be a lifestyle, but its not supposed to be your life.

Cheers David