As per the subject. My main objective is to get a good SBT90.2 light (there’s an SBT90.2-shaped hole in my heart, so please don’t suggest any other LEDs) and if possible to combine it with buying my first Hanklight so I can experience 1st-hand why people seem to love them so much, and also because they come with Anduril (my personal motto re: flashlights is, “No Anduril, No Deal”).
And of course I would like a practical light, ie one that can give me as much as possible runtime, lumens and candelas within these other 2 constraints (ie, with the SBT90.2 LED and being a Hanklight). I realize that it’s basically impossible to turbo this LED anything longer than a few dozens of seconds unless the flashlight has a very large body for absorbing and then dissipating the heat it generates, so my idea is to use turbo for short bursts and always with the flashlight on hand so I can feel when it gets too hot and then turn down the brightness. For me, having a light as portable as possible (so, without a monster reflector and using just a single battery) is more important than being able to use turbo for minutes at a time.
So, I’m thinking hard about buying a Hanklight with the SBT90.2 LED, and besides the DM1.12 (which is too large and expensive for my use case), all I can find listed on Hank’s website are the DM11, the D1 and the D1K.
They all have very similar prices (within $5 of each other) and dimensions (just 8mm in length and 5mm in width between the largest and the smallest) and weight (with both the D1 and the D1K weighting exactly the same 89g and the DM1 120g) so I’m looking at the differences to try and decide on one of them. Here’s what I’ve figured out so far:
Optics:
All of them seem to come with (smooth?) reflectors, and the D1/D1K indicate 100Kcd (~632 meters according to this), while the DM11 indicates 128Kcd (~716m) probably due to a deeper reflector?
EDIT: Thanks @tactical_grizzly for setting me straight: only the D1/D1K have reflectors, the DM11 uses a TIR, and probably due to that shows significantly worse performance (so this “128Kcd” claim is probably overstated).
Battery:
D1: 18650 battery with optional tubes for 18350 and 18500 (not sure how practical even the 18650 would be with that LED, much less its reduced versions);
D1K and DM11 are both 21700, with the latter having an optional 26800 tube.
Options:
Besides the aforementioned battery tubes and eventual chargers (which I don’t need), their product pages only list a pocket clip (will OFC get one, not sure why they don’t come standard), an “additional medium angle optic” for the DM11, and assorted magnetic/non-magnetic tailcaps for the D1 and D1K (for the DM11, a magnetic tailcap is only offered with the 26800 tube).
Strangely, I find no options for different drivers, specially regulated drivers which I think could be good with that LED (as it certainly generates enough heat all by itself and will need no help from an inefficient driver on the warm-TF-up department).
So, here are my questions:
Am I missing any other SBT90.2-equippable Hanklights?
Am I missing anything in my comparo of these 3 lights above?
Is the D1 with a 18650 battery a practical SBT90.2 light? I ask because, if possible, I would try and avoid 21700 batteries as I currently own none, and would like to avoid having to buy/stock/care for an additional battery size – but I fear perhaps this is simply not possible. And if the D1 can’t do it with its 18650, I’m pretty sure the D1K won’t either (as it’s almost exactly the same size and exactly the same weight, so probably the same heat dissipation) and then it would be best to go all the way to the DM1, perhaps even the DM1 with a 26800 tube (which is a battery size I like even less than the 21700, but if it’s what it takes, then WTH). I’ve been searching for reviews and could find nothing as compreehensive as I would like.
As per other options (including but not limited to regulated drivers), is there a “secret menu” or some other way of requesting them?
Any other tips and data and clues you folks could offer for a first-time Hanker and first-time SBT90er would be very welcome.
I’ve bought from Hank more than once. His integrity is right there with Simon from Convoy. He gets it right the first time and follow through with what he says. Your DM11 is probably the best of the little light picks in SBT90. For 21700 plenty of high amp options, Molicel 21700 P45B 4500mAh 45A Battery probably the best choice. Of the 26800 cells you’ve got 6800mah and 6200mah and these ratings are at a 10 amp draw, Vapcell INR26800 6200mah 25A with a lower internal resistance would be the brighter of the two. The D1 would be running hot and short but doable for a short period. The D1K same light weight but 21700 power. If it was for me I’d go DM11 with the 120 gram mass and the two bodies 21700/26800 for some turbo and runtime. Really think you’d be in a happy place with any of them.
I’d suggest looking at the Noctigon K1. The 90.2 is an option even though it doesn’t show on your search. The K1 would be the best for that LED. Wider reflector, 21700 battery-capable and more head mass.
Thanks! What I would like is to see some comparison (head-to-head or separate) reviews of these 3 lights so I could make an informed decision. Without more data, things tend to point towards the D1 (for 18650 convenience) or the DM11 (for added mass and larger battery).
Oh my! Looks like Hank’s site search function is a definite fail, Google Search finds the K1 alright, also finds another light called KR1… unfortunatelly also lists many other lights&stuff that has nothing to do with that, so I will do some winnowing and try to find what else I might be missing.
The K1 would be the best for that LED. Wider reflector, 21700 battery-capable and more head mass.
Thanks for the heads-up and the suggestion! Will certainly consider the K1!
Noctigon DM11: a little larger, worse performance, TIR optic instead of reflector, 21700 battery instead of 18650, RGB aux LED’s, backlit side switch, some different emitter options, nowhere near as ergonomic nor pocketable, no stock pocket clip, doubles as a cheese grater.
@tactical_grizzly, if you’re around and could comment on how/why the DM11, being a 21700 light and over 30% more mass, can have worse performance than the 18650 KR1, I would really appreciate the clarification.
Look at the performance measurements in my KR1 W1 and DM11 W1 reviews. DM11 performed worse in both lumens and candela. My guess is that’s due to the large TIR. I’ve found that many lights with a large TIR have significantly more optical losses than lights with a reflector. @dmenezes
One question: will the proportional difference in performance between any two lights with a certain same emitter in them, be kept when these same two lights are both using another emitter? Sorry if it’s an obvious question, and intuitively I would say yes, but I don’t really know and I’ve lost count of the times my intuitions in matters I know little about ends up being proved wrong…
Oh my, so the DM11 has a TIR! I was assuming it was a reflector… as at Hank’s site the photos don’t make it clear. Thanks for setting me straight, and now it makes sense: in my very limited experience, reflectors are usually best for throwers, TIRs being more appropriate for flooders.
will the proportional difference in performance between any two lights with a certain same emitter in them, be kept when these same two lights are both using another emitter?
@dmenezes yes I believe that is true, with some margin of error.
So, I am not going to try to talk you out of the SBT90.2. I’ve had several lights with it, and it’s an emitter that you definitely want to try at least once to see what the fuss is about. I’m also not going to try to talk you out of a Hanklight. They’re infinitely customizable and well-built, and Anduril 2 lets you control a lot of things that other UIs don’t.
However, what I will say is that I would not recommend getting the SBT90.2 in a small host that doesn’t have much thermal mass or a substantial battery backing it up. It’s a disappointing experience. They get hot in a matter of 10-30 seconds, and then either you burn your hands, and/or the light steps down to an unimpressive (and greener-looking) brightness level, and you’re done until you recharge or change batteries. Even the K1 (my first SBT90.2 light, which is larger than some of the models you’re considering) got hot fairly quickly and stepped down. It’s also front-heavy and awkward to handle as a result, but that’s got nothing to do with the emitter.
The best SBT90.2 light I’ve ever used, and the one that is still here in my collection is the Convoy L7. Sure, the L8 and now the 3X21D throw a little bit farther, but they do so at the expense of excellent regulation (consistent brightness for most of the runtime.) You also have the option to configure the L7 to use 2 X 26800 batteries for even longer runtimes than the 26650s provide. The heat generated in the L7 has plenty of thermal mass to spread over, and the LED is also physically far away from your hand, so you can run it all night comfortably. The regulation is such that the beam stays at a consistent brightness (and white, not greenish as the SBT90.2 looks at lower levels) until the batteries are almost completely drained. It’s really an amazing value that I strongly recommend trying out first, and comparing every other SBT90.2 light to head-to-head. I really believe that doing this can save you some time and money.
Definitely grab some Hanklights too, just with emitters that make more sense with the hosts involved (almost any other emitter will run cooler and step down slower than the SBT90.2.)
I would say yes the D1 is practical. I would get the D1K because the size difference is negligible and it works with both 18650 and 21700. It does depend on your use though, I use it mostly just in short bursts of turbo for when you want to see everything over in some direction very well, and the low modes for efficiency.
The only thing that isn’t as good with the SBT90 is the high moonlight, for whatever reason, but my sample size is only 2 so it might just have been bad luck.
Either way I quite like the D1 SBT90, it’s a lot of fun to use.
Edit: Also, idk if I would get the SBT90 K1, IMO the Convoy 3x21D is a superior host for it, and has loads of space in the driver pocket to put in a piggyback running Anduril, or fitting an all-new buck-boost + FET driver in it. I have one with a DM11 driver stuffed in, and it breaks 1Mcd with some minor hotrodding.
That sounds like the right way to use this emitter in a small host.
Do you think your KR1 has a slight advantage over the D1 here due to the tail switch? I heard this mentioned once, that KR1 should be a bit safer to use when very hot because the switch is far away from the emitter, compared to the side-switch D1.
Personally I would say the opposite. I use momentary turbo (temp unregulated) a lot, with the D1 my hand is closer to the head so I can feel if it’s overheating and release the switch to turn it off. With the KR1 I would be worried about cooking the emitter or driver if I’m not careful.
Thanks for the detailed, thoughtful reply @nicodimus22!
However, what I will say is that I would not recommend getting the SBT90.2 in a small host that doesn’t have much thermal mass or a substantial battery backing it up. It’s a disappointing experience.
I understand what you mean. But the usage I had in mind was not one of using turbo all nor most of the time: the idea is to use it for short bursts up to a few dozens of seconds max each. Sorry for not making that clear in my OP, I will amend it to that effect next.
The L7 sounds like a very nice light, but my issue with it is having no Anduril (sorry for not mentioning it explicitly, but it’s a good part of the reason I wanted a Hanklight in the first place). Perhaps something like what @YBF650 has commented could be arranged (ie, replacing its entire driver by one from Hank, or at least its MCU by piggybacking a daughterboard with an AT1616 on it) could be done, depending on whether the L7’s head has enough space inside for such a feat. I had a look and according to this photo taken from this review by @tactical_grizzly , it doesn’t look too good: the MCU is exposed on the battery side of the driver board, so piggybacking would be problematic, and the MCU is a lowly Sonix 8F570200A, which has only 4KB of flash and 256 bytes of RAM memory, many times smaller than the minimum needed for Anduril even if the rest of it (eg, being 8051 instead of ATTiny based, etc) didn’t already made impossible to port Anduril to it. Too bad as per the graphs in that review I just mentioned, it seems the L7 indeed blows all the others right out of the water.
A lot of food for thought here, and I will definitely consider what you stated if I change my use case to need more than short bursts at turbo.
Very good. Yes, I realize short bursts (like 20-30 seconds max) is all that’s going to be possible with this LED in a small host and a single battery (I just amended my original post to make that clear).
About efficiency, is there any regulated drivers for these lights? I would like to have one if possible, even if sacrificing moonlight (I already EDC a TS10 for that).
And good idea re: being able to use 18650s: I even have a 18650-battery-to-21700-flashlight plastic adapter, I just hope it doesn’t heat-insulate the battery too much and lead it to baking itself inside the light. And I understand I will need to buy high-current 18650s, as my LG MJ1s top at 10A max – and I hear the SBT90.2 can drain up to 25A on turbo – so I might end up spending less and getting better capacities by buying a few 21700s anyway.
I see your point… as long as we’re moving out of pocketable-light territory with the K1, why not go all the way and get something larger but with much better thermal/electric/optical capabilities as well as a nicer price like the 3x21D, right? Problem is, no Anduril (I already amended my OP to make that clear).
and has loads of space in the driver pocket to put in a piggyback running Anduril, or fitting an all-new buck-boost + FET driver in it. I have one with a DM11 driver stuffed in, and it breaks 1Mcd with some minor hotrodding.
Now that’s intriguing! And would of course solve the Anduril issue in spades. A few questions:
Does Hank sell the DM11 driver all by itself, or would it be necessary to cannibalize a DM11 in order to get one?
Have you posted pics or whatever from that Hankonvoy (Hank brains on a body by Convoy ) anywhere?
How difficult was it to swap the board? I am reasonably handy and know how to use a soldering iron, but don’t have any experience with SMD (and I guess neither the proper tools like a heating plate for reflowing etc). Do you think it would be viable for me to DIM?
TIRs do suffer from greater losses on light transmission than reflectors, especially large ones. The reflector based lights will be brighter due to less light being lost.
Either way, the most important factors in running a Sbt90.2 in a singl cell host smaller than a WT90 are a good thermal map on the driver and a well regulated driver. The Manker MC13 II SE i did is a good example.
On that same vein, what about the Convoy 4x18C? IIt seems to have even better sustained performance than the 3x21D (sources for these graphs: 4x18C, 3x21D); the 3x21D has more reach at 1816m vs the 4x18c at 1162m, but I wonder if that’s practical (I don’t think my eyes would be able to discern anything even at 1000m without a telescope/binoculars) and there’s value for me in staying with my LG MJ1s (as 4 of them would be more than capable to supply the 25A the SBT90.2 needs).
What do you think, would the 4x18C be a good candidate for receiving a DM11 brain transplant?
If you decide to go with an 18650, get the newer Molicel P30B, otherwise the best suited 21700 is the P45B. My hottest 18650 is the slightly older P28A, but I’ll be testing the max intensity between both lights a bit later today.
If you want to drive the lights as hard as possible without any regard to capacity, the Lishen LR2170LH is the best cell available, but it is only sold by Neal as the LR2170HP and by Vapcell as a special order item. It was those LR2170LH cells that allowed my 3x21D to hit 1Mcd, though it was very close with P45B at 985kcd.
It might be possible for the 3x21D to reach 1Mcd with P45B by doing some hotrodding to the host, most importantly replacing the tailcap spring holder with a copper plate with BeCu (or bypassed) springs.
Yes, but any of Hank’s linear+FET drivers should work fine. You can buy them as an email request, iirc it was $12 for the linear+fet drivers. I specifically chose the DM11 driver because of the larger board, it isn’t as tightly packed with tiny SMD components and only had them on one side.
You want to request a large size switch PCB to go along with it, K1 or K9.3 sized.
So far I’ve done 3 (M21C-U, H1, 3x21D), but I don’t think I’ve posted the build for the 3x21D on here yet. It was kind of tricky to put together but that was mostly because I had to figure out where each thing went.
Replicating it shouldn’t be too difficult especially if you have access to a hot air rework station, I just had a soldering iron, tweezers and a microscope (optional but convenient).
Regarding the 4x18A, IIRC the driver pocket is the same so the mod should also fit. I would still use Molicels in it though, as the modified FET driver will draw as much current as it is given, and the SBT90 will still keep increasing in brightness past 30A.
The regulation should be the same as any linear+FET anduril light except that it uses the FETs on the original driver to provide an optimized current path, so the maximum brightness will be a lot more than it normally would be. I haven’t been able to measure it but I would put the ballpark at more than 5000lm.
as at Hank’s site the photos don’t make it clear. Thanks for setting me straight, and now it makes sense: in my very limited experience, reflectors are usually best for throwers, TIRs being more appropriate for flooders.
