Ok so mines are easy but what kind of caving are you talking about? Established caves with at least a marked or improved entrance, maybe some pathways or routes marked and not too tight? Belly crawling through holes (up down or sideways) or in those short wide water passages? Any large caverns/ampitheaters that you'd want to light up? Pools or water concerns?
Personally, a good headlamp might be your best friend if it's not just easier upright walking and a little crouching. I don't really care for most of the flashlight-headlamps with the right angles...much prefer standard types from Black Diamond and Petzl, etc. Petzl has several worth looking at in their line that has the replaceable lithium pack if you don't mind the cost of those and spare packs. Their standard alkaline ones are so-so....Black Diamond is a little better on those and give halfway decent runtimes and beams (although not what we're accustomed to with lithium ion flashlights). There are much nicer and brighter headlamps but they get pricey and often bulky, so these little ones are on the money for many activities. The Black Diamond Spot and Storm are pretty good now with their latest generation...just gonna need a couple spare sets of AAA. The Storm is actually waterproof where the Spot is not fully (water will get into the battery compartment in rain/splash, but it continues to run...tough on batteries, though). Their UI is fairly simple and has both smooth ramping and a side capacitive touch "button", simple center on/off button that works ok with thin gloves...they work well with hat bills as well. Changing batteries in the dark with those isn't too bad with practice/repetition but an accessory light may be needed or at least make it faster. The Storm has a compartment latch (secure but opens easily) but the Spot will need a coin or something to gently pop it open (can thin down a corner of the plastic loops on the headband for this, too).
For hand flashlights, let me throw out a suggestion of the Sofirn C8F and perhaps a companion C8G if you want a little more focused throw at times. You get smooth Narsil ramping firmware on a 21700 cell, a side switch and a tail switch, medium floody smooth beam with great max brightness and decent distance (more than you'll want in almost any cave). They're a little longer with a bigger head than the lights you listed, so maybe that's a deal killer but I think they have a lot going for them. Other disadvantage is that if you are sliding and crawling around, they're going to dig into you and be uncomfortable maybe (unless they're in a pack, on you or pushed ahead of you), whereas the small lights might ride in a pocket briefly and easily. A disadvantage of the small lights is that if you have an oops and knock a light over/off of something, they're more likely to disappear into places you can't retrieve them, where a larger light may foil the cracks and crevices. Sofirn and most other C8 type body lights have stainless steel bezels that you can buy as an accessory for a few bucks...worth considering since those can add a little shock resistance to a head drop that might break the lens. The C8F has three emitters...really a nice light and can run a long time on low levels. The C8G is a deeper smooth reflector and a single emitter so it's got a tighter beam and more throw if you think that could be useful for the caving you'll do. One or two of each or either, two or three extra 21700 cells in the pack...plus the handy headlamp of your choice. Pretty dependable and serviceable.
The Convoy S2 lights are never going to be as wide or floody as I would want for caving but they certainly have their place and would be useful...and tube lights take up so little space. He doesn't list all the specs for all lights but he also doesn't usually do the ANSI thing (some of which is BS but it gives a standard)...he does have good info and you can of course find all that data on this forum for any Convoy light. I might go with one of his other models that has a wider head, though, and uses a 21700 where you can get some more capacity than 18650s give. His M3 lights are fantastic on run time and brightness without getting hot...impressive...but they are a bit heavy and also can cut out due to the weight of the heavier 26650 batteries not getting dual spring support (they still work fine, just may blink or shut off if you bump the tailcap hard enough for the spring to depress and lose contact with the top button...more on that below).
Also, side note, I think I would recommend a light that has dual springs (head and tail) if you think you may have the dropsies. There has been a trend lately of using solid brass buttons on the head rather than a second spring - this is useful for some aspects but in the case of a good drop the dual spring setup may prevent impact damage to the driver, in which case you're likely to end up with a dead light. I've wondered whether a hard drop on the head with those buttons might also be capable of shorting or damaging the + end of cells, too, but haven't yet heard of that happening. Just a thought, though, since reliability is paramount for caving, even if you're with a group or in "tamed" caves.
Also....another note. You may find that color temperatures on the lower end are both more pleasurable and more practical in caves. One reason is water vapor and dust in the air, where those may be present, and the other is just appreciating the subtleties of color and texture in the rocks. Cooler light temperatures are nice for general use above ground but below it can feel a little tiresome on the eyes with your objects are at close distance and/or you're using the light constantly. I wouldn't want to go warmer than 4500K although some 5000K lights are good. Damn sure would not take a cold white 5500+ with me if I had any say in the matter.
Really enjoyed the caving I did years ago....sure wish we'd had lithium and high power LEDs back then!
Style is personal preference, no mode memory actually makes me want to buy it (as if i could afford one), lack of technical information is surprising i googled Zebralight, randomly clicked one on their homescreen and got this:
Yes, in looking at my requirements again, a semi-thrower hand held light would be useful in viewing what is coming in tunnels, caves, drifts, raises, winzes, and shafts. So I'll be looking at some semi-thrower lights as well. When I say semi-thrower lights, I mean a light that is principally a thrower but has some good spill for "flooding" as well.
Yes, I'm aware that there are variations in the Convoy S2+ range. However, these lights seem to have too little technical information in order to determine their suitability for my purposes. Therefore these lights have been eliminated from consideration. No information, no light.
The Zebralights that I checked only had the lumens listed, with no runtimes, no candelas and no throws.
This example here seems to be the exception of including runtimes, but still does not quote candelas nor beam throws. I require all these (four) parameters to enable me to determine light suitability for my purposes. So this particular example light here is also eliminated due to lack of data.
Just had a quick look, and it appears this light is definitely a thrower with an (estimated) beam angle of around 14°. So, basically this light is not a strong contender because I'm really after light that are more floodier (does this word exist?). However, I am just starting to consider at least one thrower light for illuminating tunnels etc way ahead to see what is coming. But the thrower light MUST have some decent "spill" to provide some degree of flood light as well.
I don't know (yet) what sort of spill this light has. We'll have to wait for a review of this light to see what sort of beam it really has.
Not sure what sort of caves I'll be going into, but at this stage it is likely to be relatively easy going with little or no crawling and little to no (deep) mud and water negotiations.
Looking at Black Diamond, Petzl and others for headlights as well shortly.
Looking at the Sofirn C8* series lights also shortly.
Convoy lights are not really being considered any further at this stage, due to lack of information on these lights. Maybe later on.
Yes. Dual springs within flashlights help with regard to shock absorption in the event the lights are dropped or knocked hard. This will minimize any damage to the lights. I was looking at that. Unfortunately not many lights use dual springs though!
I prefer neutral (~ 5000K) color temperature as I want to see any colored rocks (and anything else) in their correct/natural colors.
I would also caution you to take all the runtime numbers you see with a grain of salt, and look for runtime graphs. Most handheld size lights have a sharp drop in output a few minutes in. It’s rare they can sustain anywhere near their full rated output for more than a few minutes, and most manufacturers are not transparent about that.
As a member here for 9 years you should be halfway up to speed on convoy S2+. Quit playing around with the AA stuff and get with the program. If you’re not going to be crawling and no water involved then you can take almost anything except those AA map readers. Unless of course there are maps, then by all means bring your favorites.
You can work out the current on Convoys, and thus expected runtime for a given battery. Anyway, the headlamp is the most critical light in a cave as that will be on all the time unlike handheld torches, and you really should be looking at professional headlamps for caving that can last longer than 8 hours or so. This thread is turning into an epic case of analysis paralysis.
I’ve been in a fair few caves but have never done proper organised “caving”. I carry at least 3, maybe 4 lights for going underground for more than an hour. These might not be right for you but I know they world well for me.
Zebralight H53 - this has been in many caves with me. An 18650 one would be better for the runtime. I have it configured so hold=low, click=medium, double click=high. Been knocked around but never fallen out of its strap. Alternatively an Acebeam, Armytek or Fenix right angled headlamp, with regulated output. I can’t recommend right angle headlamps enough.
Emisar D4V2. Or any small EDC floody light, clipped to my pocket for quick access. Other options might be more reliable and have better regulated output but I like my Emisar.
Astrolux FT02S in a holster. A fair bit of throw (600m) and lumens (7000 lm) for lighting up a cavern.
Sofirn SD05 - Spare light with simple UI in case someone else needs to borrow one. Also 100m waterproof, just in case.
I’ve taken a LEP (Lumintop Thor II) in a cave (actually an underground canal), which was fun but to be honest not super useful.
Whatever you end up doing, make sure you have 3 light sources on you, just in case, even if one is a tiny cheap one.
Actually, I am aware that light runtimes do not often show level/constant light output depending on the design of the electronics. The manufacturer quoted runtimes are taken at face value, and are used as a starting point for further investigation of lights performance.
Yes. I am concentrating more on lights that use 18650, 21700, and 26650 cells for principal illumination, including first/second backup lights. Lights with smaller cells would only be used in backup/emergency situations if all the larger cell lights were to fail or become unavailable for whatever reason(s).
I am checking that the (head)light runtimes should be at least around 8 hours (for the wanted light output). And I am also checking lights durability/reliability under wet, muddy, and dusty conditions as far as possible.
Actually my intent is aimed more at investigating mines/tunnels rather than going into caves. The reason being that mines usually have more to see.
Regardless, the lights chosen will have to be quite durable and reliable anyway for instances when I get into wet, dirty, and muddy environments (even within some mines).
Well, maybe more than that I think he was pointing out that testing graphs show the best truth about output. The ANSI run times are of course ridiculous because they allow the light to run down to levels that are far from useful. Often you'll find a light that due to a temperature sensor or a time will step down quickly from the brightest settings (turbo or high), and then what it does at that point it what can make or break a model for your use/needs. Say two lights with the same output advertise one hour of run time on high. Light A gives you 900 lumens for one minute and then tapers down somewhat quickly to 800 and 700 over five minutes where it then settles and will run another thirty minutes there before tapering on down to no joy. But Light B gives you 900 lumens for a minute and a half and then drastically steps down to 700 or even 600 lumens where it then does it's thing. Rough example but the behaviors of lights just depend on the driver and they can be all over the board. Actual regulated lights that give a somewhat consistent output over most of the life of the battery charge are less common but they're out there...have to watch those closely as well in both those initial lumens and especially their shut-off characteristics. All of this is one reason I mentioned the models I did...they have pretty good output and runtime combined. Of course running lowest levels that get you by is best usually. As you narrow down your choices, look up good reviews if they have some. This site is great of course but other websites like Zeroair's and some others also provide this excellent graph data. (There's a lot of that on here for various Convoy models, too....one of the trickier things for those is that there are just so many option at point of purchase, plus they're modder's heaven...but with his stock drivers you generally get a real bargain in terms of tech-for-dollar with great or reasonable run times and good light output without being hotrods.)
These are fun adventures...you're going to have a blast! Over here you'd run the risk of getting arrested for going in mines, if you could find a way in, and a great many are in such risky shape that...well...careful what you grab or lean on and such, at the very least. :)
You're not going to find headlamps with that kind of run time...well, not typical stuff. Anything that will run that long will have remote batteries and add some weight and bulk there. Depends on your light output setting of course but you won't see that in most lithium-ion 18650 headlamps unless you run a very low setting. For reference, the AAA Black Diamond headlamps...the Spot runs on three cells and generally you can get a good 4-5 hours running it just below high but of course the light is tapering down during that time. At max/high it throws a usable 55 meters or so (maybe a little further useful light in a cave)...after those hours it'll be cut back to maybe 25 meters. That's on good NiMH cells but you can get just a little better run time and slightly more lumens on the taper if you use lithium primaries (Energizer, etc). With alkalines the initial output is better for a half hour or so and then it tapers off poorly. The Storm model uses four cells but you actually don't get a whole lot more run time...a little but mostly some more lumens. The Petzls are either about the same as the Spot or a bit worse, depending on which. Their models that use the removeable lithium "Core" packs do fine, slight increase overall. These may be non-flashaholic models with run of the mill components (decent, though) but they have a pretty good comprehensive package. I keep hoping someone will design a lithium ion headlamp that dumbs down the highest output in favor of extended run times at reasonable light levels but it's like there's always a gap in settings (although ones with Narsil or Anduril firmware might be better...haven't really examined that but I should).
So....spare batteries and practice changing them behind your back in a dark room with your eyes closed.
As mentioned previously, I am not too keen on Zebralights. And I have concerns about the reliability and durability of headband straps that hold right angled lights on to the headband because the lights could be knocked off under certain conditions(?). So I am not not too keen about the use of right angled lights for headlights. My preference is for headlights that have a more "integrated" light on the headbands, so that there is less chance of the light being knocked off.
The other suggested lights will be looked into. Thank you.