Be careful whilst it’s nice to have a crazy bright light, remember that runtime will be hit hard. I have a Skilhunt D0 it only pulls 1.8a but produces 650 lumens OTF. I challenge anyone to say it’s not bright enough. But most importantly I can get nearly 2 hours runtime on max. The standard X6 is 2.2a so is also going to give decent runtime. For reference a Lenser p7 4aaa outputs about 160 lumens on high and 220 on turbo.
People who know far more than I do about LiIon cells used in torches/flashlights say that you should watch them charge for safety reasons.
The batteries in phones, laptops and tablets are inside tough cases with protection circuits inside and are supplied with dedicated chargers. Decent quality 18650 cells from Keeppower etc should be okay, but the knowledgeable people still say to keep an eye on them while charging. By the way it is not uncommon for third party camera batteries etc to explode/vent. When I used to read photo forums I came across a couple of UK cases where a house nearly burnt down but for the presence of the fire brigade when a charging camera battery caught fire. These were third party batteries.
I can quite understand why others use LiIon but I prefer NiNH:
1. Cheaper. In the UK four 2400mah Duracells cost about £6, a decent 18650 costs about £12-18. And if you want cheaper, Lidl sell decent LSD AA cells at £3 for 4.
2. Readily available: you can get replacements anywhere, and alkaleaks if in need too.
3. Lots of home items such as my door bell units use AA and AAA cells, so I only need one kind of charger. (There are multi chemistry chargers now.)
4. There are plenty of bright AA lights. Over 1000 lumens and you start annoying other people e.g. car drivers and walkers who are dazzled. I’ve been in a wood and completely blinded by an oncoming pushbike with light. I find 600 lumens is enough, 1000 lumens about the limit, for cross country running.
5. Totally safe. The probability of a good quality 18650 LiIon venting may be low, or very low, but the outcome when one does fail is very serious e.g. house burnt down.
Oh and the AA lights I have are well regulated on high power. Most 18650 lights are not well regulated, they do 1000 lumens for 3 minutes, then drop to 300 lumens. My SWM M40A XML does ~600 lumens for ~1.5 hours.
There is no need to watch your li-ion cells providing you have a good charger and cells. The protective case on a mobile you speak of is as much use as a paper Johnny.
As for the lights available generally you would do well to get more than 300 LM from a 2xAA light. I say 2XAA to compare size to an 18650 light. A decent 18650 should be well regulated and hold its output for longer than NiMH as the voltage is higher. My Skilhunt D0 holds 650 LM for well over an hour as is smaller than a 2xAA light.
But that’s not to say I don’t like NiMH lights, I do and I still think the Klarus p2a is one of the nicest lights I’ve ever had.
Marc.
PS 4 Sanyo 18650 are only $9.13 at the moment. That’s cheaper than 4 eneloops.
“There is no need to watch your li-ion cells providing you have a good charger and cells. ”
According to many knowledgeable people on CPF you must keep an eye on them when charging, and place the charger on a fire proof surface. Venting is very unlikely, but the potential damage is very high. These people prefer to warn customers (click on specifications):
I choose not to take the (small) risk i.e. to assume that charger and the cells are without manufacturing faults.
“The protective case on a mobile you speak of is as much use as a paper Johnny. ”
No. The case contains custom protection circuitry, which can balance the charging over the cells when many are present, and protects the cells and protection circuitry from accidental damage. Consumer battery packs for quality products do not fully charge the cells, and probably do not discharge the cells as much as you might in a flashlight, both to prolong the life of the cells and for safety. A protected 18650 has a simple protection circuit and shrink wrap ‘casing’.
Even high quality cells in a pack can explode cf Sony laptops catching fire. There is a video on CPF of a RC hobby shop burning down after the owner left cells charging and nipped out for a short while. A LiIon cell is potentially very dangerous so you want to rely on the manufacturing process being perfect? The new Boeing 787 aircraft had significan problems with LiIon cells in its battery pack:
This is an aircraft fire:
Aircraft parts are made to higher standards than consumer goods.
“PS 4 Sanyo 18650 are only $9.13 at the moment. That’s cheaper than 4 eneloops”
Are these decent capacity protected cells from a reputable seller? If so, then that is very good. The best I’ve seen from a UK seller is I think £12 for a Keeppower ~3200 mah 18650.
By the way I’m not against LiIon 14500/18650 cells, I have a few of the former, but I took the decision to err on the side of caution. Obviously you make your own choice based on your understanding of the issues. No doubt 18650 have a big advantage in terms of size, so an 18650 torch can match a 4AA one, whilst being smaller and easier to ‘refuel’.
The main problem of course if when Joe Bloggs buys cheap CatchFire cells and charger from China, and wonders why their house goes up in flames. :Sp
You said it all in the last sentence. Cheap cells from China are dangerous and I would not touch them. Issues with lithium exist but they are the same issues in a laptop or a light. These people on CPF charge their cells in a fire proof container whilst having the local fire station on speed dial and then talk about it on a laptop that is charging on their knees.
We still don’t know what caused the fires on the Boeing, it was probably from over charging or not having the cells balanced when discharging.
I drive a TDI it would be very easy for me to say you should not drive a petrol as petrol can explode. But because both technologys have been around so long we accept both for what they are li-ion is a little new to some people so they are over cautious.
All I’m saying is take normal precautions, don’t leave them charging over night or if you leave the house. But I would not leave any charger on over night. You will find that quality cells can take more abuse than you can throw at them.
There are in the UK regulations that apply to petrol. If the garage is attached to the house with a door between, that door must be a firedoor. If you fill a container with petrol, it must be an approved container. And we don’t (normally) keep petrol in the house. So the comparison is not a good one.
I don’t accept that a flashlight is comparable to a quality consumer product with a LiIon pack. Anyway, do a Google, you’ll find lots of LiIon fires even with quality products, and many many laptop battery recalls.
Your comments about experts on CPF are silly. They simply advise to take care and be aware of the worst case scenario. I’m glad that you advise against leaving the house while charging, or doing so overnight. In that case our views are not that far apart at all. Now should we obey your rules for a hoover LiIon battery pack, or a camera battery?
The petrol/diesel is a good example, I’m talking about petrol cars not petrol storage. If i throw a match into a bucket of diesel it will be extinguished, i dont need to tell you what will happen to the bucket filled with petrol. My point is should we stop buying petrol cars? Of course not.
The cells in your laptop are the same in my torch so I am confident that if they do not explode in my laptop then there is no reason why they should explode in my light. But if you can show me examples or Samsung Sanyo or Panasonic cells catching fire in a light I will change my opinion, but as many years as I’ve been on BLF and using li-ion I have not seen one example.
As for my comments being silly, charging cells in a metal box is silly if you ask me. Unless they charge there smart phones in the same box of course.
Tell me one other thing. When you buy a cordless drill do you know exactly what cells are inside? No. In my lights I can tell you exactly what cells are inside. I choose the quality.
Petrol cars are not a good comparison. We do have regulations, processes and laws controlling them. Fires due to LiIon cells in waste disposal facilities are not rare. Sony laptops did catch fire on many occasions, due to manufacturing flaws.
Your comments about CPF were silly because they do not do what you said, you used hyperbole, they just take sensible precautions, as do you in your own words. You have admitted to not being carefree with LiIon i.e. you are informed.
Serious? The only examples you can find are
In waste disposal facilities? So from old knackered cells possibly ultrafire crap lying round in skips and bins. Won’t loose sleep over that.
To the OP I would make your own informed decision on which way to go. Have a look around your home see how many items run on li-ion and how many run on NiMH and ask yourself why? Then ask how many have become a safety issue.
Most of the things you are looking for call for li-ion. Use them with basic common sense and without fear.
650 lumens, for 2 hours, is PLENTY, at least for things doing now (always limited by run time and did not wish to carry 12 batteries to make sure I did not run out of juice). As you noted, i typically have been in the 150-200 lumens range so hitting 4-500 lumens, in a handheld torch, will be INSANE compared to what I currently use.
Typically speaking, I need run time more than a MONSTROUS output lasting only 30 mins. That said, the BLF X6 had the being being I just could not say no to… |(
I can understand buying a light for the wow factor, everyone on BLF can, but if it needs to do a specific job then buy a light that meets your needs. Werner mentioned Convoy lights. Another good choice as you can spec your light, output, tint etc. Personally I find eagleeye slightly better quality. But a good choice nontheless.
We are all very lucky nowadays as quality is high, choice is better than ever and prices can be very loe compared to ‘the shops’. So you can always buy more than one light.
Tablet, phone, laptop, and drill batteries are all rechargeable. I am careful to not leave them plugged in (minus my drill battery) once they have finished. Though I understand these things happen and have happened, in my opinion not using Li-ion would be similar to the PVC/Cu piping for plumbing - have seen many people go to PVC behind the wall for plumbing. Old school will tell you not to do it because of the degradation, leaking, etc. Personally, I use copper…but I do it because I get to use my torch!!! :bigsmile: Are there problems with PVC vs Cu lines? Yes, if course! Are there problems with NiMH vs Li-ion? No doubt! If I Google NiMH batteries exploding/catching on fire, I will probably find similar results as if I searched for Li-ion.
I prefer Li-ion and have been using them in my drills, cell phone, tablets, and laptops for as long as can remember. When they first came out, I purchased electronics BASED on whether they were Li vs Ni. Not saying one is better/worse than the other…my preference. The electricity is what causes the fire…and yet every day, we leave our fans, fridge, freezer, TV, A/C, clock (potentially with battery backup), etc., plugged in and running while we go to wherever. We ASSUME the quality components are there, in place to protect our belongings…so I ask, have you EVER heard of an ELECTRICAL fire burning a house down, due to bad wiring? Of course!!! I get the concerns…I do. But I can only WORRY so much…make sure my HOUSE wiring is efficient and proper; make sure the equipment I buy is from a reputable maker, and do my best to not leave anything I am worried about, plugged in!
Sometimes it’s just fun to have monster output in a tiny package to wow your friends with. Sure the turbo mode might not be practical, but that’s what lower modes are for.
Take my modded Convoy S2+ mini for example: 27mm wide at the head by 72mm long…. no much larger than a Zebralight SC52. Output at max power is approximately 2500 lumens on an IMR 18500.
Err, Sony laptop fires, many laptops recalled for safety reasons, Apple iphones have caught fire, camera batteries have caught fire while charging, these things are not risk free. Used sensibly they are okay.
Now then I’m a carpenter by trade but do a lot of plumbing as I build houses. Anyway I love working with copper, any reason to get my sievert out, real old school gas hose and 6kg bottle. However I moved to France and built a house. I used plastic, not push fit the stuff you use with a special tool and brass collars. I will not use copper again. I plumbed to house in hours. So so quick!
Get an X6, not sure about shining through water as I’ve never tried but I don’t see why not, on a lower mode. If I’m not mistaken it will give you about 800lm around 2.2a/2.4a on turbo and high about 500lm @ 1.2a. You also have medium and low. So you will be happy I’m sure.
You are mistaken. These were charger issues not cells. And reinforces my point that the stuff people take for granted around the home are more dangerous than lights with li-ion.
Power outages is easy, just make sure you have some charged batteries sitting around, and a flashlight set aside. Even one AA light is fine as long as it is efficient in case of a long outage. Just swap the battery when needed.
For dog walking 50 lumens is okay on pavements/sidewalks, 100 lumens is fine on grass, 200 lumens is better in woods. I run at night through woods using a light, 200 lumens is the minimum to avoid tripping, 500 lumens is nice, 1000 is masses.
The boat is tricky, I’d have thought 500 lumens was ample. Bear in mind that some lights are not well regulated, so after 30 minutes 500 lumens might have fallen to 200 lumens.
By all means go for LiIon but be sensible with them, and whichever you go for, you’ll need a decent charger and spare cells of decent quality.
