Illumination Supply over $50 still FREE
Well if anyone is interested I have a trusted guy I use on eBay if you want true grade a cells. What imr Richard and Jon offer are great cells not much different but a grades go to oems. He gets new oems batteries. Either tools and skate boards etc. And takes the cells out. And sells them 600 feedback in the last 12 months 99.8 customer satisfaction. My latest order was 30 true grade a vtc 5 for 120 shipped. He offers free shipping in the USA. I got them a little cheaper because I agreed to dismantle the pack myself. Saves him labor and easier to ship. He doesn’t always have massive amounts of cells. But right now he has some nsx,20q and 25r up for grabs. Me and coworker went in on them. The batteries will have the tab marks on them those two micro points bit if you ask he will take a dremel and grind them off. Makes it easy to solder them to make button tops with solder
Hey guys, Jon here from LiionWholesale. Looks like you all figured most of this out on your own. Our shipping rates if you’re ordering a bunch of batteries didn’t change, since UPS ground and USPS parcel post are the same as before (actually UPS is a bit lower). But if you’re trying to get just a couple batteries, unfortunately rates had to rise due to USPS regulations changing.
The only way lithium ion batteries can be shipped USPS first class/priority is if you have both a device that they can power, as well as a rigid box that is big enough that you can put the various labels all on one face of it. This means that before we even put anything in the box we’re at 9oz between the heavier box and the device. So we can only fit 7 more oz before having to go to another package, which is only 3-4 batteries. I think right now it’s 3 18650s but we’re working on making some tweaks and I believe one is allowing it to squeeze 4 in, but we have to do some work to make sure we can do that.
Any company not following these rules is in a really bad spot. It’s a criminal offense to break these rules and the fines are astronomical, tens of thousands of dollars per package. This is for good reason since first class and priority packages go on passenger planes and they’re not equipped to deal with a large scale lithium ion battery failure, and you’re endangering people by shipping them against the rules. Even if the post office sees it but doesn’t go that route of reporting the person, the package will get rejected midway and just “disappear”, or get returned, which is a pain. But we will see companies unfortunately breaking the rules for a while, either because they don’t know or because they’re intentionally trying to undercut in a criminal and dangerous way. We aren’t one of those companies. I’m hopeful that all the major sellers will be switching over to follow the rules soon (I noticed IMR already did which is great).
We worked really hard and spent a lot of money on making a system that minimizes the cost increase, and gives people some free stuff along the way, while following the rules.
The good news is the free gifts are actually pretty nice. They’d probably sell for on the order of $15-20 retail. Right now it’s 18650 powered fans and some Cree XML-T6 flashlights for protected 18650s and 20700s/21700s. But we do have to add at least some of their cost to the shipping fee in order to break even on small orders so that’s part of the increase, in addition to again the higher weight of the package. Here’s some pics of what we have now (these are subject to change of course):
If you have batteries in your cart other than 18650s, 20700s, or 21700s, then you don’t get the free gift options since we haven’t been able to find a low cost product to include with these other battery sizes yet. Have to go ground. We’re working on this but it’s tough to find stuff.
I will mention I expect UPS ground to be our main shipping method and it’s a bit weird that the rates you guys were quoting didn’t show it. UPS ground rates haven’t changed, in fact we actually got them a lot lower a month or so ago. UPS ground is a really great shipping method, very reliable, and if you’re on the northeastern US it’s probably only one day to you. I checked now and they’re showing up so must have been a temporary glitch.
Anyway, hope that clears things up and let me know if you have any other questions.
Just FYI, this isn’t true. We have A grade cells, we mostly buy from OEMs. Just want to make sure misinformation isn’t spread.
Thanks for the info, Jon.
Those free gifts are actually quite nice, and a creative way of solving the problem.
Note that by only using UPS to ship to Canada, you basically make it so costly for us that we can’t order from you. UPS Standard shipping (your cheapest, which is still $26 for 4 cells) charges brokerage fees and taxes and prep fees etc. (Payable by the recipient, before we get the goods.) It makes ordering anything from the US prohibitive.
USPS is the only reasonable way to ship goods from the US to Canada, as it will only charge a reasonable brokerage fee over a certain dollar value, which normally won’t get charged on stuff under $50 or so.
Other retailers in the US will ship USPS (my last battery order was from Illumn). That makes the cost much more reasonable for Canadians (and probably other international countries that face similar issues with UPS). For example, Illumn charged $16 shipping via USPS for 8 cells, and I got them without paying any extra fees.
Hi, yeah, thanks for bringing this up too. Unfortunately it’s illegal to ship any batteries, at all, to Canada with USPS. The rules I talked about above are for domestic shipments. Canada we can’t even do it with a device, or by ground methods, or anything USPS at all. The international rules are different. And it’s been that way for a few years, that’s not a new change. In case you’re curious, the rules are here (there’s a handy table at the bottom): USPS Packaging Instruction 9E | Postal Explorer
In theory we could ship a powered device with a battery in it, with up to four of those per package, but it would need a device for every single battery, and there’s no way we could make that cost effective. Any other way is illegal and carries criminal fines and penalties. Unfortunately USPS never opens packages and checks for batteries, so it allows less responsible companies to ship illegally for a long time with no repercussions, and the companies that are actually following the rules get less business. It’s just the world we live in.
One thing we have in the pipeline is allowing our site software to allow shipping orders without batteries by USPS to Canada, since that’s fine but our site doesn’t currently do it - but I’m not sure when this will be completed.
We do value things with UPS standard where if you just buy a few cells my understanding is you won’t get charged brokerage fees. But if you order a lot of cells, or a couple chargers, you will. But on the other hand, the shipping charges don’t really change much for bigger orders, they’re still in the $20-$30 range, so then you save on shipping. We actually do a lot of business to canada, although it’s mostly bigger orders.
Have you actually tried ordering a few cells from us with UPS standard and been charged brokerage? If so I’d be interested to hear any details.
Can you post the grade from your shipments for everyone to see like Basen does on their pallets?
Each pallet shipment in the original box will have a rating a1, a2, a3, b1,b2,b3 on it. If your buying from dewalt, ryobi, dyson etc yes your buying grade a cells. Oems usually don’t deal with middle men. Not that there is a huge difference between them. No one will really be able to tell the difference your talking a couple milliohms of resistance difference in most cases. Even mooch and other battery experts openly say pretty much all the cells in the consumer market are b grade cells. Oems get the a grades. You can even see it with his battery test example the hg2 originally he rated at 20 amps his latest test it’s a 19 amp cell now. The quality the consumer market gets are majority b grade cells. 99.9 percent of people will never be able to tell without extensive testing equipment
Just curious, when did these regulations actually change? On the USPS website cover page for Publication 52 is August 2017.
I realize the document you quoted is an appendix of publication 52 (Appendix C, USPS Packaging Instruction 9D) is this what changed recently, and if so any idea what inspired it? I have a hard time believing it would be the UPS truck fire from a week or so ago, as the government doesn’t typically move that quickly. I realize you don’t make the rules, but since your business is so tied into them I imagine you may have some insights.
It was published in August 2017 and they gave shippers some time to meet the new rules so the effective date is a little bit earlier this year.
So no, the UPS truck fire had nothing to do with it. Was there a UPS truck fire that they figured out was because of batteries? I heard about a UPS truck fire but I didn’t think they suspected batteries for it.
Jon, when did these usps rules change? My last order with you was Dec 2017, so it’s change since then. I’d also like to know when Walkintothelight last ordered from Illumn.
Also, you have an acct manager at UPS. Ask them to explain Canadian brokerage fees in detail.
I used to do art sculptures and quit shipping them to Canada. The cheapest way for me at the time was Fedex Ground, but had a few get refused by the customer due to high brokerage and duty fees. I was shipping them a $26 sculpture, and they were charged $25 in brokerage fees, and duty. Fedex force me to pay the return shipping, and the brokerage fee or they would cut off my account. Ended up costing me $50 for nothing. Completely quit shipping to Canada after that. The weird thing was, even shipping usps, sometimes the customer would be charged import duties, and sometimes not. I was forced to lie and mark “gift” if I wanted their business.
This is off topic but that grade on the box is not the same grade you are talking about. That grade is just the voltage grade and means nothing about the quality of the cells, it’s for pack builders that want to match the voltage grade in the cells they assemble together. Voltage grade C is not any different quality level than voltage grade A.
When I talk about grade A cells, I mean ones that are fit for OEM usage and are not recycled or damaged or ones that did not meet QC. This is not marked on the box.
If you don’t mind, let’s stay on topic of shipping please.
Yeah, that happens to us as well. Someone orders a few thousand dollars worth of batteries and then refuses them and we have to pay duties and shipping twice on it, once going to canada and once coming back. It’s expensive but it’s something we have to deal with.
I know the rules in Canada - $20 or less is supposed to get no brokerage fees, and we try to make that happen when we can while not being unreasonable in our invoice valuations. Above that value it gets very complicated and depends on the province.
The international USPS battery restrictions have been that way since November 2012. Here was their announcement in 2012: IMM Revision: Outbound Mailing of Lithium Batteries
The domestic shipping rules changed in 2015 from what I read. But I’m asking, what changed from December 2017 to now. (post 31) You would ship me cells in a box inside bubble envelope with a lithium ion sticker on the outside. 4 Samsung 30Q’s and $3.49 First Class Parcel, and they arrived in two days. And now the shipping cost has doubled.
Other countries shipping to the US have it easy. US allows $800 duty free. One way street I guess
Oh, I thought you were asking about Canada since I already answered the question about when domestic changed. Domestic changed this year very recently. See post 30, here’s a link: LiIonWholesale shipping prices went through the roof! - #30 by Jon-LiionWholesale
And by the way, the international shipping methods are generally way more expensive to do them according to the rules…but again, if anyone’s not going to follow the rules it will be Chinese companies. Lithium battery shipping is in an awkward place right now where basically the companies that break the law are at a big advantage. I expect there to be a crackdown on it at some point though.
You didn’t show a link to it, but I think you are talking about this? USPS Packaging Instruction 9D | Postal Explorer
lithium metal and lithium-ion batteries (without equipment) are mailable in limited quantities domestically via surface transportation only.
Individual batteries mailed without equipment:
The total watt-hour rating for each cell must not exceed 20 Wh.
The total watt-hour rating for each battery must not exceed 100 Wh.
The mailpiece must not exceed 5 pounds.
A single 30Q is approx 11 Wh (based on nominal voltage)
This is 2012 DMM Revision: Mailings of Lithium Batteries
I guess I’m not seeing the difference between then and now. Both say they can be shipped ground without accompanying equipment. And you’ve always shipped First Class Parcel as far as I remember. I just assumed it went ground via First Class Parcel since you put the bold Lithium Ion sticker on the outside of the package.
That’s odd. A battery contained in a case should be more safe than a battery installed in a device (like a flashlight). For example, in a plastic case, there’s no chance of a cell shorting out if the wrapper is damaged. In a metal flashlight, there’s far more chances for shorts to occur, and even for crushing of the positive or negative terminals if things get rough.
Agreed….but I don’t make the rules.
We’re talking about loophole type stuff here though. The reason the rule is written that way is so that you can ship a laptop or a power drill.
That’s where you’re not understanding. First Class Parcel is an air shipping method. Not ground.
Under the old rules, what we were doing was good. Under the new rules as of this year, it’s no longer good. The only USPS product that allows surface transportation is parcel select. All others are air, and therefore batteries without equipment are prohibited. And parcel select is unfortunately not as cheap as you’d think it would be, since USPS’s network is built around air shipments.
So where is the link to the new rules? I see no difference from the 2012 rules to the 2017 rules that would apply to us, and you used to ship to me (first class parcel or ground or whatever), and the package would arrive in two days with a USPS tracking number, 4 cells for $3.46.
Did USPS just suddenly double the price?
Edit. I see the differences in 2012 and 2017. 2012 you could ship air, but not with these rules (no date)
So I guess I’m still wondering why usps ground is double the price of what air mail was a few months ago.
Edit#2. I just did a shipping calculation from Liionwholesale to my address. 16oz box which is about the weight of 8 18650’s plus packing materials. First Class Parcel postage is $4.94 (not including packing materials), and Parcel Select Ground is $7.10 (not including materials). I find that amazing that a package the same weight and size, of any product can fly and arrive in two days cheaper, than being piled into a truck arriving in 5 to 8 days. Still not convinced all First Class Parcel mail travels by plane. A truck can easily be driven from PA to MI in 8 or 9 hours. Would be interesting to put a GPS tracker in a package and see it travel.