Bros, I know what you are getting at now. Yes the ones with the flatter graph usually wins.
You guys have a point, esp with the usage example of cycling lights pointed out which usually needs long run times.
That's also why i mentioned earlier for hobbyists we don't quite use that low a level, for XM-L or sometimes higher current lights, which would experience dimming long before say 3.6V (very difficult to get regulated lights on a budget operating on 1 cell). But for XP-Gs and some of which run at lower levels, I guess its easier to tap into the higher cap if one so prefers. But seriously I don't really recharge from 3.6V, pretty rare as i'd have taken it out long before that. hehe....
Anyway, the only practical and tested example that I have is Solarforce version 2 2400s vs Panasonic 2900s. Its 50 mins vs 60 mins runtime on high, the light is a regulated Sky Ray 3 x T6. It is very repeatable.
I kinda went on a spending spree for a bit tonight and figured id try these cells out. I picked up a few more XM-L drop-ins and my Sky Ray 3800 showed up this morning and i felt like i should try some higher end stuff and see how it compares in a few different setup's. BTW the 3800 is one heck of a light for the money, Ive not seen BRIGHT until i got this light.
BTW the person at HKE was responding faster than i could make changes and place extra items on to my order. EXCELLENT service! I started to get the Samsung 3000mAH that run at 4.35v but i didnt feel comfortable with those numbers in unprotected cells that ill be running in pairs in a 3 amp drain light.
Also these Panasonics was only off by 250mAH at 3.3v versus the Samsung 3000 even at 4.35v when run at 5 amp pulls. Im not even sure how the heck i could get my hobby charger to even allow me to put 4.35v into a cell, If i figure it out ill get a few on my next payday and 2 weeks. Here is the page with both cells being tested all the way at the bottom of the page. http://lygte-info.dk/info/Batteries18650-2011%20UK.html
BTW i ordered 12 protection circuits from DX : http://www.dealextreme.com/p/charge-discharge-protective-circuit-board-for-rechargeable-li-ion-batteries-17-4mm-1-9mm-26112 Anyone have any experience using these? Im gonna add a few to my Reverand Jim Pannies and see how they do with them strapped on.
I saw the deal on it, But i seriously gotta stop buying lights for a while. Its a great looking light, But still on the high side price wise. Once all my orders come in ive made in the last week ill be at 11+ lights. Thats not alot for many people here im sure, But thats enough for me. I want to start modding and pushing more lumens out of the lights. And building driver and emitter combo's and modding those. Or if i do order one start getting the small ones so they are easier to hide. :)
Yeah, Stanley was on the ball last night correcting and making changes as fast as i could do them as i did it one way and he was sending me new invoices doing it another way. I told him i had both of us "Chasing our own tails". lol Seriously he was making changes and sending emails as fast as i could and fixing the order to what i wanted changed.
I dont think HKE has shipped my order yet as they say 2 days, But i ordered 2 more XM-L drop-ins from MF last night and they were shipped this morning. Heck im still waiting for DX to ship an order i placed back on the July 7th, And no one ever answers their live chat.
Anyone have any comments on these Panasonic 2900's i ordered?
And any comments on the Samsung 3000mAH purple wrapper with 4.35v voltage? I saw you need "CottonPickers" usb charger that will charge it to that high of a voltage, But i dont know how id get my Hyperion 720i to pump that much juice into a cell as i dont want to buy a $30 charger just for a few cells. At that voltage the cells look very impressive and should imitate an IMR in ways with that peak voltage that high.
Id also like comments on the protection circuits i ordered and post above from DX to go on some of my unprotected cells so i can feel safer running them in dual cell lights with high amp draw?
HK Equipment will not email you that it has shipped if you did not choose the usd2 insurance option. The Panasonic 2900s are very good, more than enough for any "tough" light and "tough" use.
Seriously for runtime, I was thinking for bike lights if its a good idea to chase after the best cells. Mod a bit for the thing to accept LiPo packs. Its just physics. 7.4V 8000mAH should be enough for 4x XP-G or 1 x XM-L you do literally many hours on that.
I actually paid $4 extra for the tracking as i did two orders separately as i was originally gonna get the Samsung 3000 until i saw the 4.35v requirement to even keep up with a 2400mAh cell. And i also added an extra set of the Panasonic 2900's so i have 4 total.
I paid manually by paypal before Stanley could send me an invoice for the second order that was $2 less so i would have only paid for it one time. But i told him i appreciated all his work in changing the order and doing it so fast to just keep the extra $. I REALLY appreciate good service, I cant afford to just throw money around and waste it. So i felt good to let him have it and hope he gets it personally.
I looked at the Samsung 3000 power curves and they are amazing at 4.35v, Which shouldn't hurt to many lights. But i have to find out how to get my Hyperion to charge that high as im not gonna buy "Cottonpickers" usb charger just to run a set of cells. His product very well may be worth it, Its just not cost efficient for me when i have chargers out my behind already.
But the Panasonic handles high amperage better than any cell ive seen. It beats the AW 2900/ Redilast 2900/ Samsung 3000 @ 4.2v and 4.35v and CalliesKustom 3100 in 3amp and 5amp discharge cycles. My goal is looking at the mAH capacity at 3.3v where the regulation in my Sky Ray 3800 switches too a boost circuit. There is one exception, The Samsung 3000 @4.35v and a 3amp discharge beats the Panasonic by 250mAH in its curve. And all that extra capacity should make the Panasonic last longer but be even a bit brighter the closer the cell comes to the end of its charge capacity when its boosted at 3.3v and under.
I am still very interested in the Samsung 3000 tho, I can see it having many good traits that extra voltage could come in handy and it handles amp draw at the top of any testing list.
I know nothing about Lipo to be honest, But id choose a safer chemistry other than Li-Ion for building large packs for a bike. With good regulation even IMR's could last quite a while.
BTW HKE has great prices even by Chinese standards.
Whats odd is i like how the Panny 2900 power curve handles higher amps better than the 3100, But thats possibly how they got the longer run time.
Which Sanyo's are you referring too? The Xtar?
Anyhow ill post up some tests when i get the HiMax cells and the Panasonic 2900's also. I know i love how the Reverand Jim Panasonic 2400 handles amp draw for a lower capacity cell. Im so glad i stole 10 of those for so cheap!
It just goes to show you have thought this out better than i have, But ill let you know when i get them and figure it out. Im pretty good and coming up with solutions and when that fails im just glad i didnt spend alot of money on them. They could be good for replacing faulty pcb's as just replacing the board on the negative end should be painless.
Seeing how the Redilast 2900 differed in specs in the 3 amp test cycles it makes me wonder just how much the protection circuit affects power output. As i can see a difference in the 2 curves, But that can happen from batch to batch also.
Interesting info, Most ive seen since i research the daylights out of every purchase when possible. But i didn't know the Redilast and AW were Panasonic 2900's.
I also read too much into testing graphs as i saw the same cell beat itself under different names 3-4 times, Just goes to show there is a larger margin of error than most would expect when looking at tests people run.
I canceled some orders from DX that had the protection circuits in the order as i felt it would be to much of a pita to mess with and i was tired of DX's delays in shipping my orders, They did refund my payments immediately tho.
I have a KD C8 that should be here in the next day or two and that will get one of these Panasonic 2900's. As will my Sky Ray 3800 get two Pannies in it since its well regulated and once it hits 3.3v goes into boost mode wich should make good use of that extra capacity.
I have way to many NiMH cells than i need, Luckily most are LSD type so if a big emergency happens ill have plenty. But i prefer Li-Ion cell use when possible for obvious reasons. But i think im done with big lights and may start buying smaller AA and 14500 powered ones. And modding, Ive already put a P60 drop-in in a proprietary lights pill and had to dremel the heck out of the pill and then press fit the drop-in minus the reflector into it. But now i want to buy some drivers and start driving my non XM-L drop-ins too 1.5A and 1.0A like they should be run. But im waiting for my replacement XM-L Manafont p60 drop-ins to show up so i dont have non-usable lights sitting waiting on parts.
When buying Li-Ion cells you have to buy smart and sometimes in bulk and buy fast as there are alot of fakes and junk cells out there and when you find good ones at a great price buy as many as you can and don't wait as once they are gone you seem to never see them again.
So just buying Li-Ion cells can be just as fun as using them.
Ill be the first to say 99% of the people here dont need a hobby charger. IMO its for people who have 20+ cells which is nothing, But i feel at 20 its easiest to keep track of them and records of them with a hobby charger. Mine even sniffed out the 4 fake 18650 fakes i never would have known were bad since i never run a cell dry.
They are also time waisting, As lets be honest your just gathering info when you cycle a cell on a HC. Mine may never actually pay for itself and save me the amount of money i spent on it. Mine was $150 which im very surprised was a low price even compared to online prices as my local hobby shop is well known for being over priced.
BUT, Its invaluable and as long as im in the Li-Ion scene nothing can do what this thing can. Of course i have to rely on others tests when i buy a new cell since i cant test it myself before buying it. But my testing may help someone down the road also.
If i can give you one piece of advice on a HC, That would be to buy one you can control 100% threw PC software. Mine has 1.2 Million options you can set and adjust, But only 4 buttons on it. NO normal person in the world can effectively use it like that. But with a few keystrokes i can change a bunch or options and run a completely different test on the same cell. And all i do is sit back and watch the graph happen in front of my eyes.
I don't need one, You may not either. But darn is it fun and handy. Sorry to ramble so much, I haven't had anything to work on lately so being bored is driving my mouth until new lights and parts get delivered.
Be-Seen Triker, sorry I don't have the software on my computer yet. Last time I tried uploading the software it crashed my computer and I actually had to re-install my operating system :( it really sucks because this is one of the reasons I bought the fancy pants charger in the first place. I may try installing it again when I get caught up on some work.
Yep, so just change them out, don't have to consider too much about technicalities etc.
I have done some runtime tests with the TF Flames. Pretty good, i'd say. Be Seen Triker has some good points about cell longevity and whether it'd hold performance after a few cycles. I have done 8 cycles already. It'd kill me to do 80 cycles though. 8 cycles as in 8 full + deep cycles from 4.2V down to 3.6V and doing nearly 50 mins for that cycle.....not a 5-10min run and then its off to the charger. I'd say for hobbyist use, buy a dozen of TF Flames and be done with it, topped off with 1 pair of Solarforce V2, 3 pairs of Hi-Max and 1 pair of NCR18650 2900s. If you want the bragging rights, 3100s are a must, of course. Don't think already....
I see nothing wrong with trying some higher end cells if you can get them at reduced prices like i have. Experimentation is one of my favorite things to do, Even tho these are well known and tested cells, They are new to me and $10 each is very cheap compared to comparable cells.
BTW HKE shipped them out today also, So i should be able to get some graphs in about 2 weeks. My KD C8 showed up in the mail today and this cell would be perfect for it since its pulling 3.1 amps at the tail, Its one heck of a light.
Triker the only software run charger i know of is my Hyperion EOS 720i NET3 AD, But ive seen others around the $100 mark iirc. Id say CPF could have much better answers if you can deal with the attitudes there.
Id really like to try those Samsung 4.35v cells, But with no way to charge them as i looked threw every option in my software im kind of at a loss on how to use them without buying a Cottonpickers usb charger which im is very expensive for what you get, And since it will only charge one type of cell is not even worth buying imo. The cells aren't all that to invest $50-$60 for a pair of cells and a charger.
Triker, you'd probably know more about the drivers. What does the driver do with the extra voltage of say for a XM-L, at 3A current the Vf is 3.3V. Say the battery juices out 4.2V when topped up. Usually what do the 1-cell drivers do to the extra voltage? As now we are chiming in with 4.35V. Can the usual 1-cell unregulated drivers actually make use of that additional capacity?.
Yeah the redilast 2900mah and AW 2900mah are based on the panasonic NCR18650 2900mah. Callie's customs 3100mah, ex-cell 3100mah, redilast 3100mah are based on the panasonic NCR18650A 3100mah.
I actually emailed hkequipment 2-3weeks ago, about whether they could get the panasonic ncr18650a 3100mah (unprotected) in stock. They said they will try and import them, but the stock is very 'tight' at the moment. Maybe you other guys should also email them, if your keen for them. The more request they get for it, the more likely they'll try to get it in stock sooner.
In regards to the sanyo 3000mah needing to be charged to 4.35V. You can still charge them to 4.20V, but they just won't give you as much capacity. You might need to look up some discharge graphs, but I seem to remember them giving around 2600mah if you discharge them from 4.20V. I theory if you only charge them to 4.20V, they'll give you longer lifespan than if you were to charge them to 4.35V
8 cycles as in 8 full + deep cycles from 4.2V down to 3.6V and doing nearly 50 mins for that cycle.....not a 5-10min run and then its off to the charger. I'd say for hobbyist use, buy a dozen of TF Flames and be done with it, topped off with 1 pair of Solarforce V2, 3 pairs of Hi-Max and 1 pair of NCR18650 2900s. If you want the bragging rights, 3100s are a must, of course. Don't think already....