Motorcycle LED Project: integrated indicators & brake light, custom headlight unit

Howdy folks,

I had some interest in my introduction thread about this bike project that I’ve got going, so I thought I would post a thread here. Hope this is the right spot!

Here’s what I started with:

Nevermind the mismatched wheels - it’s going to be mainly a supermoto, so dirt wheels come off. Although I’ve never ridden offroad so the dirt wheels will definitely go back on at some stage! It had no rego when I bought it, seemed that it had just been used as a (bloody fast!) bush basher. Oh, and for anyone wondering what kind of bike, it’s a KTM 380EXC. Yep, big bore 2 stroke, it’s quick!! When I took it for the first ride around the block with the supermoto wheels on, I scared myself. In a good way… If I had to describe it, it makes my GSX-R1000 feel like a learners bike. The throttle response is like on/off. Well, more on “off > on > definitely on”. At least it seems like that when coming from a well tuned 4T with a smooth linear power curve.

These only weigh around 110kg ready to ride, so it should be a bit of fun on the track! But there’s a ways to go before that, here’s something like what I’m aiming for when finished:

I’m making custom bodywork all around, including a headlight unit (I’ll have one set that is carbon fibre, and another one or two fibreglass sets that are painted or vinyl wrapped). I’m looking to make an LED headlight with integrated indicators, hopefully the LEDs will allow for a really tight fit, I’m aiming to put the lights right at the bottom of the unit, under that little edge that points out. For the rear I’m planning for integrated indicators and brake light tucked away right under the rear fender. Depending how things go, I may try to have the indicators completely hidden like this:

As far as mods on the bike, I don’t have much planned, the idea is to do this as a budget build so I’m doing as much as I can myself, no bling to start with. Just going to check that everything is good in the engine, if so I’ll just clean it up and put it back in the painted frame. Only additions will be a clutch/case saver with knockdown bar, and changing the gearing to be better suited for something around 160km/h top speed. I think it’s got an FMF Fatty pipe on (that’s the one for more low torque, right?) I’ll leave that and see how I go, but I think a Gnarly with more top end would be better suited to the type of riding I’ll be doing.

Oh yeah the SM tyres are a 160 rear and 120 front. The rear just fits in the swingarm with about 5mm each side, tight fit! May have a bit of chain rub, but I’ll just let it clearance itself. If I do feel like more power (eventually when I’ve worked up the courage to use full throttle), I know of someone through a supermoto forum who can help with that. Apparently there’s some fairly simple engine mods you can do to these to get some decent gains. But that would be way down the line.

Now onto the subject of lights… unfortunately I don’t have much to show on that front. Most of my time has gone to the other bodywork so far, I think lights are going to be the very last things I do, but I have started on the headlight unit. I’m basing the shape on the Yamaha Cage Six concept stunt bike:

I’m pretty sure those areas right at the bottom of that unit are just grilles or some kind, the thing hasn’t even been designed to have lights, so there’s the first challenge! Add lights where they probably shouldn’t fit!

I started with a bit of a rough cardboard mockup and just put down a couple of layers of woven fibreglass to capture the shape.

I didn’t get the angle of the lip quite right, so had to adjust that:

Those pieces just had play doh holding them there so I could easily get the position right, then I filled in underneath them with body filler (I just mix polyester resin and talc to thicken it to more of a paste) to stick it down and I’ve just gotta keep working it to get the final shape. The play doh can just stay in there, it doesn’t matter since this is only a plug. Once this is all shaped and finished I’ll be painting it, then polishing it to a high gloss and making the mould the actual part will be made from.

So that’s where I’m up to at the moment… still researching what LED would be best for the headlight, I was thinking of using 3-up XP-G2, but not sure if heat could be a problem? I want to try and keep the entire headlight unit light and slim, so a giant heat sink wouldn’t be ideal.

Also not sure about what kind of optics would be the go? From what I’ve seen of other DIY LED motorcycle lights they seem to be a real problem if anyone happens to look at the front of the lights. So I’m thinking they will need to be recessed a bit, and use a reflector of some kind so if anyone does look into the headlight the brightness is not concentrated in one small spot? Less blinding if the brightness is spread over a large area at the source?

Anyway, I’ve got to keep looking around, I’ll post back here when I make any more progress with the lights.

optics for automotive use are really really tricky. 1st Q - are you planning on registering this for road use? If so, first check out what ever the rules and regs are in your state (QLD or NSW? I can never remember) as that may kill if off immediately. If not, you’ll have to make some compromises between the size of the optic/ how much throw you need (=how fast are you going to go)/beam shape.

The bigger the optic/ reflector the better the throw (generally) and at 60-70mph you’ll need a hell of a lot of throw to ride within your lights. Also, there aren’t many optics/ reflectors designed with an upper cut off to avoid blinding oncoming traffic as the majority have a round profile. Your best option may be to have the low beam recessed so that the fairing physically cuts off the light (similar to how low beams in projector lights work) and an open high beam. I’d look into a mix of elliptical optics for your low beam and aspheric optics for high beam, to get that throw. I’d also be very careful about putting too much light down on the ground in front of you as that will ruin your long distance night vision.

Don’t forget to report back on your progress!

(note, posting this on CPF would have gotten me banned :laughing:

Thanks mugget. I’m loving your pictures already. I like your mould. :slight_smile:

My first question would be are you planning on registration for the road? At least in the USA, most states have minimum sizes for headlights, turn signals and reflectors. Most places, a true highway headlight reflector is going to be mandatory to go through inspection… as Matt said, optics are key.

None of the aftermarket lights that I have seen are meant to be used in a legal street situation, as they will absolutely blind on coming traffic and also not give you the lighting that you need to ride safely on the streets. And if you are going to be ‘backin it in or hacking’ some corners, then you need some addtl illumination for those fun antics. (there are certainly pod lights from BMW, etc that are very useful)

Assuming you have enough power to run incandescents, so any combination of LEDs will not tax the alternator.

The counter to that question - are you planning to ride much either off highway (even on smooth graded dirt roads) at night (or when you change back to dirt tyres and readjust the suspension settings and travel…) in that case the bigger the reflectors and the more lights you have, the fewer times you will be surprised and end up shiny side down. Maybe a small HID for real power?

Most of the budget stuff I have seen from our big bike retailers is just that…budget design, mediocre LEDs and no street legal optics. The nicer stuff is going to cost you some bucks from the more reputable outfits, including any number of off road specialists here in the states who have great products.

So fashion or illumination, that is the question…to see or not to see?

mugget - good to see motards still alive and kicking. Thanks for sharing and love to see your progress and what you come up with.

Check out my bro-in law's shop. http://www.vancouversupermoto.com There are some builds under "VSM bikes" that may give you some ideas. Yes I believe there is a 99 KTM 380 EXC in there too.

thread suscribed!

Cheers all, this is going to be a big help… I’ve already spent months trying to find suitable optics, and thought that I may have to hack something together, like maybe mounting a small 20mm lens in the base of a large reflector. Combined with recessing the light in the fairing, but I’m still not sure if that would be enough? Part of me thinks that I should just go and order some LEDs and bits & pieces and start testing things out?

I am planning to register this on the street eventually, and I definitely want to do the LEDs properly if I go that way, not just cobble some things together that will blind oncoming traffic. Sure way to get a ticket if you blind an oncoming police officer! I’m open to the idea of using other lights, HID etc. But even then, you still need the right optics/lens setup for HID, can’t just use an open bulb, right?

If all else fails, I’ll just go for an aftermarket headlight unit with a plain incandescent bulb. Although I’m sure most of them wouldn’t be strictly road legal either! But I’ll be asking at my local shop all those questions about what they will pass a roadworthy on, headlight size, distance between indicators etc. Thankfully at least one of the guys at the local shop seems to be a fan of motards, maybe he will give it roadworthy if it all just works reasonably well. We’ll see…

I doubt that I’ll be riding this at night very much, if at all, but I want to try and do everything right so the light doesn’t limit my riding choices too much.

Is it generally true that the larger LEDs provide better throw, and smaller ones provide better spread? For instance would something like the XM-L2 be a good choice for throw down the road (used with something like a spot lens), and would the XP-G2 be a good choice to use with an elliptical lens for light closer to the bike?

I figured that CPF wasn’t too keen on this sort of topic after I was unceremoniously banned after posting an introduction thread there. Well never mind that, I’m just glad to have found this forum and that things here are a bit more reasonable!

A couple of other questions, how much total light do you think would be required for riding at 100km/h (~60mph)? Would you measure that in lumens or watts, or…?

Also has anyone ever made their own reflector? Or could it be possible to modify one with an upper cut off? I’m thinking about making a part from composites and then epoxying some kind of reflective material into it?

Cheers for all the info! I’ve made a bit more progress with the headlight unit plug so I’ll post some photos of that later. Although I’m not sure it will work how I wanted it to now… anyway I’ll post an update about that later.

Cheers BIGWOOD for the heads up on that ’99 380 EXC build. I haven’t seen many ’99 builds, they mostly seem to be 2000 onwards with USD forks so I may come back to that that on.

Okay, I got to this stage on the headlight unit and am starting to wonder whether I should go in a different direction.

That lowermost section is where I was going to put the lights, but that area is only about 40mm high now, and I will have to trim it down a little to keep the proportions right. So depending on the size of the optics needed, I’m open to the option of just putting this aside and going for a much more simple design that allows for some larger optics.

These are the kind of minimal headlight units that I want to aim for (and bonus points to anyone who recognises the lights used in these & where they can be purchased):

Similar to above, but I would probably go for the dual-light setup just so I have the option of night time/offroad riding.

Something similar to those round/sphere shaped lights are those used on the current model R1:

I could try to find a smashed R1 fairing and take the lights out… maybe that is just what was done for those above builds?

I’m not sure on this one, apparently it’s street legal (not sure in which countries though, haha!).

Anyway I’ll wait to hear back about what type & how many LEDs would be required for safe night use before I start hunting down other options…

I saw an led kit on a CR125 a couple of years ago which used the ignition power to power the lighting circuit. I cant imagine it being very bright though. It was something like this.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FactoryKiss-Yellow-Universal-Motorcycle-Motocross-Fairing-Headlight-LED-Light-/251164414312

I’ve got something like that on my XR400 motard. The LEDs are really just for show…

Not sure if I did mention this anywhere - but I am planning to run the bike with no battery, everything just powered straight from the stator (to keep things really simple and save weight). The stator puts out 130W, so I figure I will be fine, especially if using LEDs?

I’m going on with other parts of the build now, putting the headlight on hold. But I will come back with an update as soon as I have anything new!

generally larger LEDs need a larger optic or reflector to get the same throw as a smaller LED, so for a given optic size large LEDs won’t throw as far.

Personally I think the best approach would be to have 2 aspheric lights (the bubble optics on the R1). One with an internal shutter blocking off the top 1/3-1/2 as a low beam, the other without - with both on for high beam. Unless you can get fancy with a moveable shutter (how the car manu’s do it), in which case you could run both. Then, for some in fill an array of 4-6 LEDs mounted under that lip with a mix of spot and elliptical optics, using the fairing to cut off the top of the beam to avoid blinding oncoming vehicles.

That should do the trick :slight_smile:

Cheers matt, that all makes sense. Not as simple as I first thought, definitely going to be more of a long-term project here…

I saw this pic looking around on some HID forums:

Which I guess shows the kind of cutoff that I’d want? Although I think it would still need to be angled downwards since the headlight sits pretty high on a dirt bike.

I think someone posted this idea in another thread here, to use a cheap 10W LED floodlight (~$15 on eBay) for the case, which I’d guess acts as an appropriate heatsink? And that kind of solves any housing/mounting problems.

Then using a 10º x 30º bike light lens?

Anyways, this has all given me a much better understanding of what is required. Now just to get my hands on some gear and start testing things out.

Giving an UP for this thread...

Does anyone of you guys have LED daytime drivinglights on your cycles?

If you have, what would you recomend?