Nitecore marketing is weird

LED Flashlights – General Info 21700 Flashlights
1

Take the MH12S (a 21700 light) and compare it against the Fenix PD35 v3.0 which uses a 18650. Same lumen output, same throw but on the spec tables the Fenix somehow gets 30min more runtime on turbo despite having nearly 50% less battery?

I was bamboozled by this at first, LED efficiency couldn’t possibly explain such a physics-defying difference but it’s only when you look closer at the Nitecore specs you notice that they show turbo runtime “without thermal regulation”. This is absurd, it’s impossible to use it in any real-world scenario without this regulation unless you want to just have a total 45min of very brief bursts. Nobody uses a flashlight like this. I actually cancelled an order for a P10i last year because of the poor runtime spec, but again it’s not the real story. On max output according to reviews the MH12S will actually last about 3 hours, more than twice the runtime of the Fenix which is obviously much more in line with what you’d expect.

Maybe some people need the other number for specific use-cases but I can’t help thinking Nitecore are losing sales by quoting runtime in this unusual way.

2

Personally I find it a lot more fair to sum up small bursts at “real turbo” than advertising surrealistic runtime at “turbo” that are in fact 15 seconds of turbo followed by 3 hours at 30% …

3

600-700ish sustained lumens (FENIX) vs 1000lm (MH12S)

4

I see what you mean
goes to show how misleading the Fenix specs are

basically, unless Nitecore Lies like Fenix… you wont buy the light…

better to read independent reviews, than to trust Fenix specs and deny yourself a Nitecore because of Fenix Lies.

5

I don’t think either of them are lying, if anything I think the Fenix specs are more realistic. Nitecore just need to make their method clearer or just show both numbers.

6

You need look closer even closer.
Ok nitecore formulation is not clear, is not with no regulation otherwise the lamp would catch fire, it’s a theorical calcul based on a mode where the thermal regulation need not to be used.

Runtime with all other spec must be use with caution.

I take P20iX data table for explain.

Higher output 2 hour —-> high output 2h30, gap is not realistic for output x 2 power lumens more so 2h on higher is with turbo regulation and drop at high
But if you see
High 2h30 ——> mid 7h15, gap is realistic, you can conclude high (850 lumens) is approx the real output can do this light with termal régulation.

So 2h is the max runtime possible with max output possible (around 850 lumens) sustains and constant, with start higher but not sustainable output.

So with the MH12S and the Fenix on her data table, the real runtime and her real sustainable output confirmed by Freeme with the screen of zeroair test
Nitecore can sustains 1000 lumens and Fenix 700 and you can also see nitecore have more runtime at 1000 lumens(3h15) between Fenix at 600 lumens(2h35) and this is a near totally real runtime.
And it’s totally consistent with the difference cells capacity :slight_smile:

7

Don’t think lying.

As a purchaser it remains up to you, unfortunately, to understand and choose your product
Lot off data don’t stop reflection :frowning:

8

I get the feeling you are being misguided by reading the Fenix Turbo spec of
1700 Lumens for 1 hour 25 minutes

when in fact output quickly drops below 1000 lumens, as shown in the Fenix runtime chart that freeme posted:

.

9

I think more companies should post when the actual light steps down, like Olight does everyone knows no light can sustain turbo very long unless u are holding one of the bigger lights that can mainteain x lumens until battery runs out but most smaller will stepdown i think its unfair write that a light does turbo for 1 hour and 30 minutes if it steps down after just one minute its false marketing to me and not very honest. Neither acebeam, imalent and many others writes specific stepdowns which i think they all should and be a little more transparent so that users dont think something is wrong when a light stepsdown after a minute but it says on the box turbo 1 hour 30 min…

10

i’m still interested in ‘the most lumens you can get for 1 second’

who wouldn’t be
?

11

I don’t think it’s dishonest to list the runtime on the max output setting and not explicitly mention that the torch isn’t capable of subverting the laws of physics. Nitecore lost a sale to me last year because I didn’t realise how they were stating runtimes. I have emailed them today to ask why they do things this way as it seems strange.

12

I personally won’t buy a light based on any quoted maximum brightness in lumens. What is far more important to me are the low levels and the runtime at a sustained brightness level.

I bought my Fenix PD36 TAC not because it has 3000, 2000, and 1000 lumen modes, but because it can sustain 350 lumens for over 10 hours, and 150 lumens for over 18 hours, or 30 lumens for over 43 hours, which you can see from the chart Fenix publishes. The 1000 lumen mode is in reality a 750 lumen mode after the first minute or so. These are the important numbers, to me.

13

Anyone who buys a flashlight thinking that this new flashlight is somehow going to subvert the laws of physics is not thinking rationally. We all know that batteries have finite capacity, finite maximum discharge currents, and that LEDs generate heat and can easily overheat. It wasn’t that long ago that 350 lumens was pretty much the maximum you could get out of any single emitter with 2xCR123A batteries, and now here we are with 3000-4000 lumen single emitter lights running on 21700s.

14

Indeed, this is why I think Nitecore’s strategy is counter-productive. Nobody looks at the runtime of the Fenix lights and assumes that it’ll stay on the max lumen output for that entire period - they even publish a graph showing how it tapers off. But glancing at specs you could easily make the same mistake I did and compare turbo output between two lights based on the runtime they publish and get completely the wrong idea.

15

It’s like the ANSI spec that was designed for hotwire bulbs. Runtime is however long it takes to drop below (iirr) 10% of its initial brightness.

So a sneaky mfr of LED lights will have output drop to like 11% almost immediately, then just float there ’til it can’t sustain even that.

16

That’s why I have Imalent MS18, MS03 and MS06, Nightwatch NSX53, Emisar D4V2 W2 and D18 W2, Lumintop FW3 and 4a W2 and 21Pro 90.2, Nitecore TM9K XPL and TM06S 50.2, Noctigon Meteor M43 XPL and KR1 90.2, Mateminco MT07 W2, Astrolux EC03 and EC06 and FT02S 50.2, Manker MK34 XPL, ThruniteTN36UT, P60 quad XPL, Fenix TK75 70.2, and Acebeam X50 and others with similar burst performance.

Well, maybe four seconds. I didn't buy any of these lights to run on low mode until the new Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven to earth. Or to run on medium mode, until peace comes to earth, with or without people.

I bought them to light up as large an area as possible, as brightly as possible, to identify the target as quickly as possible, then to throttle down when the target is acquired.

Thank you, Acebeam Astrolux Eagletac Emisar Fenix Four-Sevens Haikelite Imalent Lumintop Manker Mateminco Nightwatch Nitecore Niwalker Noctigon Olight Sofirn and Thrunite and many others for offering your exciting products!

17

It’s deceptive, or at the very least, disingenuous to publish specs implying that the maximum output, or a turbo level, can maintain a theoretical duration without violating the laws or physics, or at the least putting the light or user at risk.

Give credit to Fenix, which provides output charts, Olight, which notes stepdowns, or others who acknowledge such facts.

The lay “anyone” or “everyone” cannot be assumed to be a BLF reader, a light enthusiast, or perhaps even maintained the knowledge provided by whatever physics schooling they have been provided, if any at all.

If that was the case, and every Amazon (or wherever) shopper was well-armed against such tactics, they wouldn’t exist, and boasts of “-Fire”-branded 10,000 mAh 18650 cells, feeding 50,000 lumen tube lights would not be required. Yet they do, are taken at face value by some, if not many, and work.

Even within the “inner circle,” or those who know better, cards like the phony turbo mode durations are frequently played, or company reps who brush aside pointed questions about things like driver types when promoting a new model. Never mind turbo, or max mode, the reality is that lower modes aren’t sustained either, and that 1300lm light is more like a 250lm in sustained usage, and sags as its FET driver drains the cell. Yet, it continues, because it works for this crowd as well. The same principle at work, only in more subtle ways.

1 Thank