Please stop Group Buys that haven't tested the flashlight?

LED Flashlights – General Info
1

That is kind of a thought I have had many times in the last 9 years on the forum.

And although this has been discussed before, I still see it happening.

Group buys of new flashlights that haven't been tested.

(so not group buys where people collaborate with manufacturers and build lights 'together', like Lumintop GT etc.)

Who tested the new Astrolux WP2 LEP? Does it really reach 2.3 km?

I bought the Jetbeam RRT M1X LEP, which looks very similar, and may even be the same flashlight, and it doesn't perform to specs.

Specs:

Lumens 480 (tested mine at 280)

Candela 1.322500 (with a quick check, (I have to do it again when it is really dark) I could only get 920 kcd... edit.. I tested at night, and got an even lower number)

Beam distance: 2300 meters (mine: 1900 meters)

I will recheck everything, opening it up, and see what could be wrong, but it's sad paying more than $200 for a flashlight that isn't working as expected.

This isn't really about this particular flashlight, but Group Buys in general.

What's your guys opinion?

Test before the group buy? Or just order and find out later?

Would you change this based on the price? If the Group Buy is for a $30 flashilght vs $200?

2

"What's your guys opinion?

Test before the group buy? Or just order and find out later?"

Some people don't mind being the guinea pig, but I prefer to order things that have customer feedback so that I have a better idea of what I'm buying.

3

I don't mind buying a flashlight that nobody has reviewed either.. that is kind of my job as a reviewer...:) but the time when I was really careful with spending any money on a flashilght, I would be very p$%%^^&# if I paid for something that wasn't performing as expected.

4

so you tested a light that looked like the light in a group buy, but it was not, the light that you did test did not live up to claims of the light you did not test. but looked the same, and now you claim the light you did not test, does not perform as advertised, do I understand you correctly?

5

That is a very valid concern especially since it is an untested product and a similar product didn’t perform to spec. Though I did pickup neals/vins unbranded LEP which wasn’t tested and it performed better than listed spec of 810kcd from neals listing but less than the 1.1m cd from vins listing sitting slightly over the 1m cd mark but then again my testing equipment is amateur at best and on a budget so the numbers could be off.

But in general I would also like to see numbers from the manufacturer after testing and not estimated performance based on individual parts.

6

Almost. Lol.

It's not about this particular light, but Group Buys in general.

Wouldn't it be far better to test a light before the group buy starts?

7

This is the reason i also stoped buying untested GB lights.

€&@? That

8

True, in this particular case, it was even more concerning with the original Jetbeam M2S WP-RX LEP. I hope it would live up to it's claims, but it didn't either. It was specced at 880 kcd I believe, which it never achieved. I kind of knew that before buying it, but since the original M1X WP-RX was outperforming it's specs I had some slight hopes...

9

That’s dissapointing. Have you tried cleaning the contacts? Don’t think it would make much difference but worth a try. How did you manage to get it so early? Jetbeam told me it’s out of stock and will be available on the 20th.

10

The idea of a group buy is to get in early and at a low price. If there will be testing and reviews first, that will cause delays and the price will be higher if all the specs check out.

11

I think you are quite right with your remarks on the specifications.
There is (however) an aspect that you`ve barely touched.

The first groupbuys I participated in were large “movements”.
With lots of people who made plans, that others made changes to.
Sometimes the process took so much time the specs became outdated.
But we knew that because on multiple occasions we got a few test specimen.
In the meantime we were asked to state if we were interested, or not.
And in the end a product was launched the majority of us could live with.

Quite another thing happens with a Kickstarter buy. Someone makes a specimen.
He/she is happy with it and wants to make more, but lacks the finance to invest.
So he/she tries to commit a group of enthousiast backers for his plans.
There is one test specimen. The rest is a matter of novelty and trust.
If the (first) run is bad, that’s the end of the line for this product.

Some of what today is called a groupbuy can (in my POV) be decribed as follows.
A manufacturer contacts a middleman about an item that is hot (with other brands).
Or an item that is not on the market, and probably won’t be, because of little interest.
The message is: there are a few niches open and I can lego a light that fits in one.
But I only make it after you make certain I can sell it nnn times.
So once the threshold is taken, nnn members receive a light that has not been seen before.
And not been tested before. Good manufacturing and QC or cutting corners all the way to the bank.
Making the customer a guinea pig.

IMHO it is wrong to call that a groupbuy, because the only involvement of the group is:
paying for the product and baring all the consequences afterward. Quality and quantity (specs).
I think you can call something only a groupbuy if the group also has a say in it.

My English is not on par to express myself like a pro diplomat. So I may have cut a few corners myself.
But I hope I did not offend (some of) my fellow members, because that was never the intention.

12

Also, some of these companies are small and they wont produce a product unless there is genuine interest. Take for example Wyze camera, how do you think they can make a wifi camera for $18? They take tens of thousands of orders and then produce them. There are no reviews before the product is shipped because it does not exist.

Its the new way to conduct business. The risk is passed to the customer. It may not be fair but how else would you get an $18 camera or a $15 flashlight.

13

I can see there are different ways of looking at this, but keep in mind we are talking about production lights that can be tested within 1 month. Kickstarter is something different in my opinion, we are now talking about a company with enough funds.

It doesn't need to have a delay, because the changes are probably not going to happen anyway. But it's much better for a buyer after all. It's maybe 1-2 months more wait till you get your light.. at least you know what you can expect.

14

Yes!, nicely said. I totally agree with your paragraph especially on “Some of what today is called a groupbuy can (in my POV) be decribed as follows.” i have participated in a few GB since i’ve been here, and i always kind of have the presumption (based on those who have been here longer) that it can be a gamble in QC / output claims since the GB is a first generation and the kinks haven’t been worked out yet (i think of reading about the mf01 mini GB and some issues people had, which happened before i signed up to BLF).

15

Nice discussion.

Would there be a difference when it comes to price?

Gamble on a $20 light vs $150-$200?

16

We’re all adults here (I hope), and know the risks.

If there are those who are willing to accept them, in exchange for a lower price, why hinder them?

Truth be told, there are examples of production lights that don’t live up to their claims that remain on sale long after the initial group buy has faded, or perhaps not even have one to begin with.

And how would such a thing even be policed? A council of approved or appointed reviewers who hold power over what can and can’t be promoted? Smoke signals to give the admins clearance to allow GBs to proceed after word has come down from the mountain? Using what criteria? With approved tools? Who gets to decide, or even wants that?

“Next batch,” “revised,” “new version,” are all a part of the budget game.

You fall down when learning how to ride a bike, or to ski, but that’s part of learning how to stay upright.

BTW, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission has declared loose 18650 cells, and only 18650 cells, dangerous, and is pushing eBay to remove them from sale. That’s one way to address risk, I suppose.

17

I’ve only purchased 2 different lights from group buys. In both cases I wish I had just waited a little longer until they fixed the bugs or flaws in design. It would be nice for these manufacturers to send out a few lights for review before the group buy is finalized but I don’t think that will happen.

Usually I can find prices of the updated versions to be not so much different than what I paid with the group buy.

18

Guys, the days when a company designs a product, invests money, hires employees, rents buildings, all to find out a product flops is behind us.

The business model has changed. This is not because companies are greedy, its because consumers wants both quality and low price.

There is a reason why the FT02S is $40. Its machined, has electronics, had a nice design, and is 11,000 lumens.

We know its made in a sweat shop in China, we know US$ are flowing out of the country taking away American jobs, but we buy it anyway.

Why, because we want decent quality at a low price and we don’t give a damn how much peripheral damage we cause.

19

EDIT - sorry, I just reread your ‘new flashlights’ bit - but this still applies, even if it is not to new ones.
I am not sure we get them cheaper because we are guinea pigs really….
I think one thing that has been forgotten here is this site…. in regard to the GB’s.
So far as I know all the GB organisers and selected ‘in the know’ technical people one here all get to test/play with/keep the pre -production lights, until it’s at a point that they and we are as happy as is possible.
Sometimes these samples go to other forums for testing too.
Then they go into production.
So WE effectively test them and the software (if applicable) before they go to production for the group buy (as well as the manufacturer) - you could argue ‘we’ are as much to blame for any shortcomings in testing. Obviously not for an manufacturing issues though or QC slip ups. I think that is where the issues come in here - they are rushed out - obviously sometimes with NO QC at all, even sent with obvious errors and malfunctions, probably our fault as well - you only have to look over past GB’s to see people baying for the first one even if it’s not quite right.
I WANT, I WANT, I WANT NOW! :stuck_out_tongue: Take my money! :sunglasses: - seen it loads of times.

If we want stuff produced to a ‘proper’ retail standard, maybe we should all be a bit more patient, including me as well!

20

I like to be the guinnee pig sometimes if it is a novelty light, just to test it, take it apart, fix/improve it and make a nice post on BLF about it. That is hobby, I do not pay the money for a flashlight but for a couple of hours hobby-fun :slight_smile:

The last “group buy” of an untested light was different: the Astrolux EA01 was hardly a risk because almost everything about it (driver, Anduril, led, build quality, etc.) have featured on other known lights, new was just the optic which is not a big risk. And indeed the light was exactly what was expected (and I love the beam out of this large TIR :heart_eyes: )