No saying 20 would not do and 7 would, saying that from my knowledge 20 or 7 would be the same pre REAL production so not worth the hasle to have more then the team OK pre REAL production
We have made clear and will stress it more that quality control is important. I am sure TF will understand this and that
putting cells in, ramp up and down, remove cells , send it down the line for packaging - means no DOA and shipment of all Q8s working is both cheaper for issues can be fixed right away and better for their standing.
I think testing all items is something not seen before in a project like this and should lower the rate of faults dramatically.
Letās not forget if 2% has issues this would mean 22 lights not good, too much, yet even A brands do have a certain rate of failure. However we also know that if a light lights lots of manufacturing errors possible are not made.
As with all complex things 100% accuracy is hard but our QC specifications should make the failure rate lower then without it (dinged wooden boxes, scratched copper, driver rings not tightened, anyone? )
Yes sorry I said it has onboard USB charging when in fact it is a barrel connector (5.5mm I think & the supplied charger had a 2 pin plug so I wont be using it).
Iām a Quality Engineer in manufacturing, and they definitely need to do a trial batch or two before going full-bore mass production, in fact I would be shocked if Thorfire didnāt have a trial run or two planned before mass production begins. First you have prototypes/mules, then you have parts that are only off production tooling (Off-tool) but not production-like processes, then you have Off-tool and Off-process (production process), then you have high volume and rate trials, THEN you have mass production. You donāt go from a few prototype examples straight to mass production unless you specifically WANT defective products, lol.
Even small production runs are valuable information - you learn something with every trial run you do (if you have designed those trials correctly and have a reason for running them). If the light is indeed Off-tool and Off-process (OTOP) it doesnāt matter that it wasnāt a batch of 10,000 lights.
Whether or not you ship 20 of those OTOP pre-production samples to customers for feedback is debatable - you might get some good feedback, but you might also wind up with units out in the field that are not fully up to your quality standards which may be problematic even if they were originally shipped with the understanding they are pre-production samples.
I would offer my services to review a pre-production sample. I feel I could provide a valuable viewpoint from my career in engineering & manufacturing QC.
Yes, as bella-headlight mentioned; I do have a UF 4-L2, thanks to a generous mate in the UK. :+1:
Mitkoās recommendation was spot on too, as b-h stated. This is my first SRK type light and I am beyond impressed with it. It is one of my top favorite lights.
It does have onboard chargingā¦ a round plug type that does work.But onboard charging is a non-issue to me as I donāt plan to use it anyway.
The fit & finish are above average IMO too. I am pretty much impressed with everything about the lightā¦ā¦. :+1:
As part of product development, I work with our manufacturing engineering and QA team almost every day, been involved in it ON/OFF over the years since the early 80's. Not sure how much we can do with only the final product in-hand and not knowing about the process, automation and structure of what they have. Some tell tale signs for sure - for example, just by examining the machine marks we could probably get a good idea of what manufacturing equipment they are using, but again, all that could change from batch to batch.
I've worked pretty closely on some other recent new flashlights (others over the last couple years), also working now with yet another manufacturer (not ThorFire). True, there can be small batches done initially, but most pieces are for their internal use, or local testing/review. Again though, this Q8 project is very different from those experiences, where they are developing a commercial retail light, as opposed to a low margin custom group buy.
Tom, sorry if I came across like I thought nobody here knew how manufacturing worked. I just see a lot of people that donāt understand - lots of āwhy didnāt Manufacturer A include X feature, it would only cost $0.20?ā thinking only of the parts cost without realizing what is involved in changing a running production process. Or comments not recognizing the difference between the design and the manufacture quality. Or comments that are just plain wrong: āitās cheaper to have non-anodized threads because itās less coating material!ā No, itās more expensive to send it back for a second machining process.
But I still maintain that you can tell a lot from the product. Yes you can learn more from go&see to observe the process running, but the product is a pretty good indicator usually.
No, sorry, didn't have time to complete the post above - bizy here. Appreciate your support, but again, think'n they will not ship a bunch out. Other thing we could do though, at least, is pass around the one proto sent to me - cheaper stay'n in the US of course. Don't think we could do it practically for 10 people, but I was think'n a small group like 2-3. Shipping would have to be covered, but at least it wouldn't be crazy.
I think that your opinion on the prototype is as good as it can be Tom. No need to pass it around as that will not increase the knowledge on the light.
If you want to send it to someone who has extensive experience & knowledge of manufacturing and know what they are talking about for a second opinion, that is another story. But to just send it to a few of us āflashaholicsā, I fear personally would just be a waste of time. my opinion
+2 as much as I would love to play with a working prototype of this beast, I also know I have nothing beneficial to add to the examination any of the professionals who are consulting on its development. Waste of time IMHO. Iāll just sit and daydream about preparing grilled cheese sandwiches with the hellacious output of my very own Q8!
IF TF follows what is written in the āQuality Sectionā all should be wellā¦ā¦.
Below is a copy of the āQuality Sectionā from the OPā¦.
Quality
Samples 100% as agreed and specified before continuation to actual sale.
Final production lights 100% as agreed, specified and samples
Video of drop test shipment packaging made available before lights available for sale.
ā¦. This video shows at least 10 drops of the light in packaging from at least 1 meter high
ā¦. falling in different angles, the 8 corners, bottom and side hitting the ground first
All lights tested before shipping to spot and fix problems and avoid DOA.
āāāāā-
BUT, I really like what RobertB suggested, quoted belowā¦ā¦ā¦
Now, while I am not a āteam memberā; I would be more than happy to volunteer my services for this arduous task. I figure all you āteam membersā are working lads with much responsibility at home & work. Soooo, since I am a retired āold fartā I would be more than happy to ātake one for the teamā and do this.
No applause please, I feel it is my sworn duty to at least offer.
Hmm lots of input and different directions. Donāt really know how to address it but think Tom covered it pretty good
When I saw the hype comment it made me think. I see it as a good idea to send one of the prototypes (hopefully V2) to somebody outside the team if it does NOT need lots of tweaking, so we donāt even know IF this V2 is eligible for that.
I think it is good to have somebody not directly involved take an objective look and report it and Iāll cover inside US shipping to that person (and ouch that hurts, could have had a sweet Narsil driver instead but deem this more important ).
Now donāt spam me or the thread
If we do this I contact the BLFer to ask if he/she wants it
Iām afraid that when I type this, it will be interpreted as negativity. It is intended as constructive, trying to help make a better product.
From a QC perspective, the above Quality requirements are so vague that they are not very useful.
āAll lights testedā ā how will they be tested? If I was ThorFire and wanted to meet the requirement set above, Iād have a trained monkey turn the light on, see that it makes some ā any amount ā of light, and therefore itās ānot DOAā and it is OK to ship.
True quality standards would include things like:
What are the required extra and more in-depth tests and parameters for design validation and process validation prior to Start of Production (think durability and reliability testing)?
Function testing - What (specifically) are the required tests and parameters for function testing of each light coming off of the production line? Continuity, Modes, Lumens, Amperage, Temperature, etc. What characteristics do you want tested 100%, and which do you want checked on an Audit frequency (like every 50 units, every hour, whatever)?
Machining ā What dimensions are critical? How will you check threads? What is the spec for surface roughness of the MCPCB mounting surface ā I bet you donāt want Ra 6.3, but did you specify?
Coating ā did you spec what coating to use and where/where not to use it? What are the requirements for hardness, adhesion to substrate, abrasion resistance, coating film thickness, grain/surface finish, corrosion and/or solvent resistance?
And on and onā¦ Soldering quality, component spec, opticsā¦
All that stuff would be agreed upon beforehand. Agreeing after it is produced that a proto part is acceptable and then saying, āYup, build them all like thatā is not a realistic way to confirm quality of the product IMO. And that level of detail would almost certainly raise the price of the product, I doubt Thorfire is doing that type of QC on their own unless the customer demands (and pays for) it.
But on the other hand, we are not the traditional ācustomerā that gets to dictate these things the way I would if I was paying a manufacturer to build this specific light for me. We arenāt paying them, we are just giving them suggestions/requests for a light that we āpromiseā to buy when it comes to market. So they are in a similarly abnormal situation where technically they can do whatever they want and either way they have no guaranty that they will be paid for their work at the end of it all. But it is not a true statement to say that because they provided a video of a light surviving a drop test in its packaging, that we are assured of a quality product.
Like I said above, I wrote this intending to be helpful, and not critical. I recognize all the hard work the team has put into this light (without pay ā at least I get paid to do this stuff, lol), and Iām looking forward to buying a few. If my observations can help make a better product this time or next time, Iām happy I took the time to type this out.
heheh sac02 i am a little bit glad you did not pop up at the start since input like this could have easily have brought a set of specifications to the table in such great detail that we not only have a hard time checking it, but even harder getting it done
This is a cooperation, not a customer/manufacturer relationship. It is in the best interest of Thorfire to do it right, they know what core specs are, they do it on their other lights as well
This is the way of BLF special made groupbuys, it is mutual beneficial if it works out and good intent should be present on all sides, and we know it is there at Thorfire and here on BLF.
Personally, I do not think your post came across as anything but positive. :+1:
But remember I also said thisā¦ā¦.
And the most important partā¦ā¦.
ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ (to me anyway, as I have always thought a trip to China would be interestingā¦ā¦ ā¦) was this oneā¦ā¦
Now the above is the one we really need to considerā¦ ā¦ Only in the interest of not inconveniencing any real team members of courseā¦ā¦
Seriously āsac02ā, to me what you wrote makes a lot of sense; cause nobody wants a thousand plus lights to have problems. That would be worse than a nightmareā¦ā¦ā¦ :person_facepalming:
So to me it looks like more input from another who also knows the manufacturing business could be nothing but helpful.
But that is only my opinion.
~
EDIT to add: The Miller is doing & has done an excellent job on the whole project of his. It has been stellar as far as I am concerned. :+1:
I can only imagine the countless hours that he and the Team have put in on this.
They are to be commended in my book. And a big Thank You to all of yaā.
And Tom? The XHP-50.2 also has the donut hole in the middle. Just got my DBC-05 made this evening with 3 of em and the tint shifting through the beam is not to my liking. You can move it around and see the dark spot in center, as well as a sort of blue/purple shift in the hot spot when not in high or turbo. Iāve got the 3 of em pulling 20.3A for 9008 lumens on a pair of 20700B cells. Donāt really like the emitter though, any more than I liked the XP-G3.
Ohhh shoot! Got two in the other day from Arrow, J4 5700K, cheap, but not available in single qty right now. Thought someone posted they tested in various reflectors and looked good with no black hole, darn...
I got a triple reflector from KaiDomain that came with the usual white centering ring for XM-L2ā¦ base of the reflector is flat so thereās not many options on focusing. I may have it a little high due to the 20ga leads. You can see the dark/semi-dark center out to around 30 yds and then the beam is getting larger and merging. Maybe a single emitter light with some focus room wonāt show the spot. Thereās still the weird color though.
Are they DHLāing that V2 Proto? Wondering when you might get a hands on to see how theyāve adapted.
Donāt really like the emitter though, any more than I liked the XP-G3.