I see your point and I would never use a rifle for home protection for fear of over penetration and a round possibly exiting the house and entering a neighbors house. That is why I have this 12 gauge shotgun setup for home protection with a TIR lens that allows the beam to be the same size as a 00 buckshot spray at 10-15 feet which is perfect for inside the house so there is no fear of over penetration or missing the shot at the shadowy intruder.
While the castle doctrine is a very effective deterrent to break ins it clearly doesn’t protect against over pentration.
The research shows that states adopting “Stand Your Ground”/”Castle doctrine” laws reduced murder rates by 9 percent and overall violent crime by 11 percent.
E1320: Thanks for the follow up.
For home defense, light on a weapon can lead to trouble. Civilians see movies and magazines showing lights on a long rifle or tactical weapon used by police, defense operations or military but do not appreciate their application is in a totally different venue and objective than home defense. They also have the benefit of comprehensive training.
You have a nice shotgun for indoor defense use. I use a similar home and ranch defense shotgun loaded with a game load of #8 shot @1350 fps. Follow up shots holding target well can be easily made and there should be no major wall penetration.
I am arrogant, and at times can be a prick. However, neither of those traits makes my comment less true and your comment less wrong. If a follow-up is necessary, we can talk about this ad nauseum via PM.
Luckydog,
Welcome to BLF and I hope that little banter above doesn't dissuade you from the forums. Safety semantics aside, here's some info on your search:
- E1320 and Texas Shooter both offer up some great advice. The two big concerns are beam pattern and flashlight integrity. A P60 style light is a good choice due to mounting options. An xm-l in a smooth reflector will offer plenty of spill, and if driven @ 2.8 amps should give you the reach (depending on other factors such as ambient light, air conditions, and target coloring). Another option would be an xp-g (or better yet, xp-g 2) with a SOP reflector @ 1.5 amps. Better runtime, farther throw, but less total lumens and sidespill. You'll know best what beam pattern you'd prefer, so a cheap way to find out would be to buy a solarforce L2 host and a couple of different drop-ins. Try them out at night in various scenarios and see which one is best.
Oh, and as Texas Shooter suggested, use good springs on both the driver and switch along with having the pill potted just for extra insurance against recoil. I'm sure E1320 could make one for you like this.
I wish I could say "Buy brand X light and be happy" to make this easier. Just too many variables though.
No doubt, hence the rule for finger off the trigger until sights are on target. IMO, a really good safety rule which I like to focus people on when talking about trouble situations (like my son-in-law on Sat who was checking his load indicator due to a misfire . . muzzle was downrange but coming up at the time I noted his finger was still on the trigger).
Not having a light on a weapon can lead to all kinds of trouble also. So can having an unmounted light and no weapon; as can having an unmounted light and a weapon where two hands should be used for proper use. Not to mention situations when using a light can be a strategic problem.
There’s lots of free public gun safety advice out there that people take in, even for those seen as civilians instead of citizens. The former lends a tone of subject where the latter is one of respect from military and police who recognize a role to serve and protect by their own action (instead of opinion). Some even reflect experience that citizens generally use their guns to the level that they’re trained, comfortable or familiar.
Just a friendly warning to you guys using shotguns for home defence, do not underestimate the power of penetration of shot at close range, either buckshot or small shot is fully capable of penetrating average brick veneer walls. I saw some test results done on this some years ago, and it surprised everyone who saw it.
I seriously suggest anything but small birdshot, you may get a deadly rathole, you may not. No agency or military I’m aware of use birdshot for self defence. Smallest shot and load I could ever recommend is BB-4 shot turkey loads. Most loads get about 1” spread per yard travelled with larger pellets generally delivering tighter patterns. Try sheetrock at 15-20’ with another layer 6” past, very little penetration. More light the better, you go from identifiying a target to identifiying whats in his hand to who’s near him or 100’ past him. I like to do all this without having to sweep the weapon around. If you think your light is too bright just bounce it off the floor, muzzle down and the light is still useful. Just don’t stare at the pretty light look ahead not at the hotspot on the floor. Think of it as a reverse ceiling bounce. And on those negligent discharges. Years ago my Sgt. loved to say “Keep those booger hooks of the boom button.” Finger on the receiver until ready to go boom then lower the finger to the trigger. If you’ve read this far then your at the end of my idle thought. God Bless and keep your powder dry.
Interesting article on shot penetration and suitability of various rounds. Real world tests sort the bull from the rest. Anything capable of stopping a man will penetrate Gyproc/plasterboard sheeting and then some. I pray none of us ever have to fire a shot in defence of our home and loved ones, but if you do, give some thought to this. Shotgun Shot Penetration Tests
The good thing about living in New Zealand a rifle light is used for possums, rabbits, hares, pigs and the odd deer. Luckily we do not have many of them intruding into our houses so hence why we get a good nights sleep without having to sleep with a pistol/rifle/shotgun/weapon in/on/under our beds.
Sounds like a sad way to live a life. Mind you, if I get one more gun I will be safer…. I am sure of it!
For rifle mounts an TF X9 on top provides plenty of safe shooting out to 100m. Luckily over penetration is not a real issue as rarely are they standing infront of one!
I can not imagine living in a country that has sooooooo many guns and sooooooo much gun crime! Wonder if the two are linked?
It’s been a bunch of years, but the false wall tests I’ve seen suggested nothing larger than #1 buckshot vs 00 which is more effective as a stopper. Most likely it was Ayoob I read on this.
For very close self-defense distances, I’ve opted for 2x4 turkey load with buckshot backing that up.
Well, New Zealand has a ~30% higher murder rate than Switzerland where nearly every home has a gun so I think there are other factors that may have a bigger impact . .
Those of us living in rural areas generally don’t have the daily worries . . but we also have to police ourselves since response times are to come write a report on whatever happened . . nearest city police are 15 minutes away with only 1 or 2 on duty at a time . . county sheriffs are 15-20 minutes away and not staffed much deeper . . and highway patrol just write speeding tickets until called to backup one of the others . . we’re more likely to have a game warden close by than any other LE but 1/2 of the time they are in a boat and the other 1/2 they are 20 miles away at their office or lunch in town.
I can’t remember a murder occurring within 10-15 miles over the last 12 years we’ve lived out here . . monthly or even more often somebody in our neighborhood dies of old age . . . drunken fishermen drownings happen a couple times a year, mostly during bad weather - unless they don’t have a life-jacket on or hit their head as they fall overboard.
Dude, we are old school, we hunt pigs with dogs and knives, none of this rifle business.
Murder is not always a gun crime
Is the swiss case the norm? They have all the rich dudes money, so of course they are going to have the guns!!! Or else the people from the country of the depositors will come demanding that they pay some of it in tax in stead of trying to hide it “coz they earnt it”. H)
NZ has approx 1/4 the number of guns, and approx 1/4 the number of gun related deaths compared to the USA.
But if you want to go by murder NZ has approx 1/4 the murder rate of the USA
Of course there are other factors involved, go watch “Once were warriors” helps explain some of the deaths in NZ.
As a gun owner, I accept the risk that goes with the fact that I have firearms. Military Style Semi Automatics are hard enough to get here in NZ, Full Auto just does not occur.
A bit of an issue in NZ at the moment is being shot by your mate or some random dude who mistakes you for a deer, we have had a couple of people recently blowing other people away by mistake, and before anyone goes on about them being idiots and not following the rules, accidents have even been happening to Mountain Safety advisors [firearm safety trainers].
Hard to compare apples with apples in this issue, but I will stick with my point regarding gun ownership and gun crime………
just had a look at the swiss thing using those links I quoted above.
It appears from those number that the Swiss have roughly about 1/2 the guns per capita than the USA, yet they have a gun related death rate of not far over 1/2 of the USA.
So they seem to fit my point as well.
I do admit it is hard to compare apples with apples, i.e. first world developed countries vs impoverished countries where you literally have to fight to stay alive.
LOL, that’s the important question, really? . . if criminals can attack with fists or a knife or with a stolen gun that won’t be traced back to them, what do you think they’re going to use?
So when faced with a criminal who will overwhelm with hand-to-hand combat, what do you say to those who are disadvantaged as to size, age and sickness?
Well just a little off topic. This tends to happen when I’m off my Ritalin. But could the weapon culture also be a matter of subject vs. citizen. If not too late would like some fish and chips with a half liter of Bass ale. Love that metric system an extra 0.9 ounces per pint.
LOL, that’s the important question, really? . . if criminals can attack with fists or a knife or with a stolen gun that won’t be traced back to them, what do you think they’re going to use?
So when faced with a criminal who will overwhelm with hand-to-hand combat, what do you say to those who are disadvantaged as to size, age and sickness?
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1) Run Forest Run!!! :bigsmile:
2) Here is my wallett/keys/bank account, please close the door when you leave
3) Want a hug?
we will all be disadvantaged as to size, age and sickness at somestage in our lives. The size/shape/rate of fire of any weapon I hold will also have an impact on the outcome for both parties involved.
Anyway, apologies for my view on whether gun owner ship and gun crime are related.
Personally I think that the HD2010 would also be a good medium distance rifle torch if you can get the mounting sorted. My old HS-802 while throwy enough did not light up enough of the area being shot at to make you feel comfortable in taking the shot unless being very familiar with area and what may be behind or around your target
No need to apologize for one’s honestly held opinion . .
Funny, but seriously you’d suggest those as the only choices to another citizen who would prefer to fight for a chance to not be raped or killed at the whim of a criminal . . while you have better options to defend yourself?
So, are you saying it’s just their time to be the community’s sacrificial victim?
So give up, make other people victims, and let criminals roam? Whatever happened to letting people make their own reasonable choices and live with the results of them?
Will depend a lot on intended use and where the rifle will be used. Inside a home, I like an XPG instead of a heavy duty XML. Outside at a stand we survey the land and plan shots; I prefer no spill on the rifle and a separate light on a tripod for flood or broader throw before targeting. (And still hope for NV.)
I found this old mount I had used to mount a D cell Maglite to my 12 gauge when Maglites ruled the world. It just happens to fit my modded C-88 perfectly which is nice but the C-88 is really to heavy to mount on a shotgun because of the recoil. You really need a light weight light with dual springs to eat up the recoil, the lighter the weight the better it holds on.
For those that were worried about over penetration I use the little 2” 00 buck shells for home protection. Not only do they have much less recoil and penetration, I can fit two extra shells in the tube.
That is quite the mistake!