please notice that the SFT25R 5700K LED that I am talking about is a High CRI version. This is important
imo Yes, Aux are important
I understand you are asking this because the Copper SC13 Buck driver does not have Aux.. Maybe a poll would help determine whether people would be OK with No Aux.
imo Wurkkos would have the most unique product, with less competition, if they produce a Throwy High CRI TS10 with a Single High CRI SFT25 5700K LED with Aux
Does Wurkkos want to add another Triple 519a light to the market, that has to compete with
the Emisar D3AA (it Has Aux and dual fuel),
and Lumintop FWAA (it has No Aux and No dual fuel),
both of which already offer Triple 519a LEDs?
Or is it better for Wurkkos to build a light that nobody else offers?
Nobody offers a light with High CRI SFT25R 5700K.. I made a poll for a TS10 with a Single LED. Here are the results so far:
Wurkkos would have the most unique product, with no competition, if they were to decide to build a TS10 with a Single High CRI SFT25R 5700K (maybe no Aux would sell, Im not sure). I highly recommend including the USB-C 14500 battery.
I think what made the Copper SC13 with no Aux popular, was the Copper and the Buck Driver. Maybe Aux dont matter, If the light is Copper
In my opinion, a triple LED setup and over 2000 lm sounds like a gimmicky party trick for a 14500 light.
With the very limited power and thermal budget of such a small light, it should focus (pun intended) on being efficient. To me, that means using an efficient reflector that directs the light where it’s needed, rather than scattering it everywhere. In such a compact form factor, a single LED with a proper reflector will perform much better in that regard.
Also, dual fuel isn’t important to me, and I think the compromise in efficiency isn’t worth it. I personally much prefer a light with strong performance and efficient (buck) regulation on a dedicated Li-ion cell (with usb-c), compared to one that’s mediocre but can also run on alkaline.
I don’t think I have a good understanding of what average buyers want.
Personally, I don’t need a triple. I don’t use the extra lumens anyway. I’d be totally fine with a single LED light which maybe has a bit higher candelas per lumen. I care more about the beam having a good color and shape… particularly at brightness levels under 100 lumens.
I also don’t really care very much (for my own use) if it’s AA, li-ion, or both. I can use either one easily.
I do care about how advanced the driver is, like how efficient it is and whether it pulses or uses constant output … but I think even a simple 7135-based PWM driver is “good enough”, and nicer designs have diminishing returns. The difference between the least efficient and most efficient drivers these days is whether I have to recharge an AA-sized cell once every 4 weeks or once every 6 weeks. Either one is fine for a weekend trip.
So, for my purposes… the traits I want in a TS10 style AA size light are:
Good beam color and beam shape: Ideally about 4 to 10 cd/lm. 4000K to 4500K with a pink tint, or 4500K to 5000K with a neutral tint. Nothing above 0 duv though.
Ability to ramp from ~0.1 lm to ~100 lm. (I don’t really care if it goes lower than 0.1 lm or higher than 100 lm)
RGB aux with very low standby power. Should ideally get about 1 year of standby time on low aux for each 1000 mAh in a li-ion cell, so … about 0.1 mA or less. This is the main way to see battery status.
Tail e-switch.
A nice clip. The Wurkkos HD10 clip is fine.
Shaped to hold with a cigar grip.
Anduril, of course, and firmware flashing pads which are easy to access.
A premium power regulation circuit is a nice bonus, but not really necessary for my use.
I think one interesting point about dual fuel vs 14500 vs AA is that an AA can produce enough just about as many sustained lumens as a 14500. Can’t hit the same turbo and can’t produce those sustained lumens for as long, but in a light this size and for this intended use, that is probably fine. I suspect that’s why ZL’s AA-sized light is not[edit] AA only. You don’t have to worry about exploding NIMH the way you do LI-ION so it would make for a better glovebox light.
Given that Wurkkos has a price point to hit, I would rather see them have a great AA-only driver than a mediocre 14500 or dual fuel one.
It will probably never happen, but I think it could be pretty interesting. Would also make it a more muggle-friendly light by a long shot.
Making this poll for a TS10SG completely (and understandably) skews the results towards the SFT. If it were made for a TS10V3 as this thread is intended I doubt it would land at similar results
I’m curious what others think were the reasons for the success of the original TS10, and maybe also the early TS10 V2 batches with the better emitter batches.
My guess is that it was a rare combination of things at a very low price:
surprisingly strong turbo for such a tiny light
full Anduril, including flashing pads and aux LEDs
high CRI and, in the better batches, a pleasant tint
very low moonlight
I think the very low moonlight was one of the underrated reasons for the TS10’s popularity that I don’t see mentioned in this thread. TS10 was one of the cheapest lights you could recommend to someone who wanted a proper sub-lumen mode for night use without killing dark adaptation.
This also seems to be one of the weaknesses of some newer Wurkkos/Sofirn drivers. For example, the lowest output on the new TS26 Anduril driver is 7 lm, which is not moonlight at all and is far too bright for dark-adapted eyes.
It seems that part of the problem is that Wurkkos is designing these newer drivers with only a single gear, to use ToyKeeper’s term. That limits dynamic range and makes a true sub-lumen moonlight much harder to achieve. At this point, it looks like at least two gears are needed if the goal is to have both a very low floor and a properly wide output range.
A proper sub-lumen moonlight is easy to underestimate until you use it regularly, and TS10 was one of the cheapest lights that got it right.
So to me, the TS10 succeeded because it offered an unusually complete package at half the price (or less) of many other Anduril lights.
I’m not sure it is even technically possible to add all, or even some, of the things being suggested in this thread (like AA support, a more efficient driver, or more expensive 519A emitters) without breaking the equation that made the original TS10 successful in the first place.
The TS10 Single LED, IF they use a 519a, has a beam that is wide enough for general use, similar to a TS10 Triple, but with lower cost for less LEDs per light. By using the TS10SG host with a 519a, Wurkkos would not need to produce a new Triple LED mcpcb for the 519a LED option.
The poll does show there is 49% interest in a 519a TS10SG, and also 51% interest for a High CRI SFT25 5700K TS10SG. They are two different products. The poll shows interest in both.
Wurkkos could be serving both market segments with the same TS10SG host, by using two different LEDs.
I agree this is a valuable feature, and Im glad you pointed that out. I had not noticed that the Buck driver Wurkkos is considering, does not have sublumen capability.
The TS10SG does work well with both the small SFT25, as well as with a 4000K 519a. I think Wurkkos would have two good products by using the same host.. They could save money by using the TS10SG for both roles, since they would only use One LED instead of three LEDs. They can also save on LED cost by using Hopthink LEDs similar to the Emisar NTG35, instead of 519a LEDs.
With these two LED size options, SFT25 and NTG35/Hopthink/519a they could build two versions of the TS10SG, one for throw and one for close range. I think their main challenges so far, is they dont have a Buck driver with Aux lights, and as you pointed out, the one they do have access to does not have sublumen.
I think the poll also shows that the SFT25 version has a certain amount of interest, about 51%. The remaining 49% of poll responders are interested in a 519a version. Although the 519a respondents dont all agree on which CCT, the 4000K has the largest interest among the 519a group.
I hope Wurkkos reaches a useful conclusion on which driver and LEDs to use in their new TS10 model(s). I think a High CRI SFT25, Plus a TS10 Single with a 519a/NTG35/Hopthink would serve both user interest groups. The Hopthink/NTG35 LED option in addition to being cheaper than 519a, can have more Rosy tint. imo the Domed 519a tends to have greenish tint. I consider Rosy tint more desirable.
I like the Tint of the NTG35 4200K better than the Tint of the Domed 519a 4000K.
I would prefer the original TS10SG driver with sublumen Moonlight and Aux, over the Buck driver with no Aux and no Moonlight.
The Simplest solutions:
I would buy a TS10SG with the original driver and a Hopthink/NTG35 4200K, with a USB-C battery, and HD10 clip.
I think a TS10SG with the original driver and a High CRI SFT25R 5700K, with a USB-C battery, and HD10 clip, would also be popular.
Thank you all. Currently, it seems that the demand for a single high-quality LED is much better than that for Triple LED . Multi LEDs of 519A, i think will update from TS26
Aux is fun but not necessary. I’d much rather have AA ability than Aux if I had to choose.
Single or triple doesn’t matter much in a 14500/ AA light. Not a lot of lumen difference between them In this power / heat envelope.
The nice thing about a single LED is the reflector or optics can be more throw-y but can easily be diffused to create flood if one wants that instead. On the other hand a triple floody light can not be made throw-y.
Please compare the moonlight to the previous TS10 with the old driver. The ideal floor is around 0.1 lumen.
I have 0.5 lm floor in my Skilhunt H04 and it’s too bright to use in the middle of night.
I wouldn’t treat this thread as the only source of customer demand. It mostly reflects a very small group of the most dedicated flashlight enthusiasts, and their preferences may differ from those of mainstream buyers who drive most sales. It would be better to compare sales of the TS10SG vs the TS10, and look at broader customer feedback including other Wurkkos communities before drawing conclusions.
A single LED version has obvious advantages: lower cost, reuse of existing TS10SG components, and simpler development. A triple still has important mainstream advantages too: more impressive turbo (higher lumen numbers for your product page) and a smooth, floody beam that probably suits how most people use a small light.
I agree the TS10 Triple is the Most Floody, on left. However the DeDomed 519a is also Very Floody in a TS10SG, middle. On right is the TS10SG with High CRI SFT25 5700K, we can see it has a Very Defined Hotspot (with Much more Throw than the other two lights).
Well, out of the limited number of replies, there have been more vocal ones here that like the single led concept better.
I think you should be careful in taking that to mean that this reelects the opinions of the more general market.
My opinion is still that the triple , with good LEDs and a good driver has many advantages over a single LED light to pass on that idea based solely on the replies here.
I wonder, how many more of the original triple version did you sell versus the SG?
Did you notice that when people voted on the best light of the year, the original was mentioned far more than the SG.
Just a few things to think about.
PS I missed the @AccurateJazz before writing this. I think I could have skipped mine…
