Using MULTIPLE lenses - taking the mystery out of it...

Flashlight Modding and DIY Parts
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this CAD drawing is just a quick rough sketch. Its not to any scale, nor does it represent anything other than the main idea… you can see if you use one lens in the lower drawing? you “lose” light that doesnt cut the lens… in the first drawing, another lens has been added closer to the source? i tried to show it hitting the closer lens much better, and while it isnt doing ALL the focusing? its focusing it SOME… so more of the light can cut the second lens…

when i started doing this? i fiddled and fiddled and fiddled for quite some time… i quickly got a LITTLE more distance with my IR source, but, nothing major… then when i added a third lens? disco… i got a bigger and brighter emitter image and it went farther. Watching my monitor, i fussed over the airgap of the main 2 lenses… and adjusted it a hair at a time, watching for when i would pass over the high spot… tuning it meticulously…

i played with many different lenses, in many configurations, before i got pay dirt.

please dont get the idea that any lens instantly yields results, it took some time and patience. improvement using 2 lenses with an airgap and adjusting the airgap? was marginal but noticeable… then when i plopped the small lens down into the p60 reflector?? it was like “bam!”… and then i had to readjust the 2 lenses airgap to tune it.

honestly? edmunds scientific wrote the paper for their customers as an instruction on prototyping illumination systems… using a second lens is the very next thing they suggest, if you want “more” then you can get with a single lens… the link is in the first post. Edmunds scientific is a fairly well respected company, its hard to believe they just made the whole strategy UP, simply to sell twice as many aspherics to their customers, eh?

the first couple paragraphs basically covers what we all normally do, then moves on to THIS as the next step.

its a fairly well respected company right? i would tend to put stock in their scientific papers, unless my trust is seriously misplaced. Its not like the idea came out of “sh!tfire illumination corp” out of the far east…

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I’m into reloading and target shooting and hunting… a lot of us that are, own CHRONYS… its nice to drop a measured velocity with your “pet” load on line or in person.

a lot of reloaders have one… and a lot DONT. Those that dont? generally report that they load for accuracy, not speed, and that higher ACCURACY. Its common to say “Do you impress deer when you miss them?” to a new guy that doesnt have “tight” targets but loves to point out his top velocity.

(I dont own a chrony… I load for accuracy in rifle)

==

in night vision? we want to “see” our emitter image as far out as possible (I guess we want “throw”) We cant GET meters, all we can do is look on our screen, and accurately report the distance we post a picture or a video that we illuminate a stuffed rabbit at, or of a game animal, or of the scenery.

we’re almost all using the same digital sensor just about… most of us use a e700 or a ej230 as the base unit, and both share the same sensor and post processing unit.

===

“some guy” came to our site. he was from “the flashlight site” and he was there to HELP us!

we were initially happy… but…

he MEANT well, but, he wasnt BUILDING any IR illuminators… he lectured us on “throw” and “lux” and “candelas”. And used words like “throw”, and “lux” and “candelas” and “surface illuminance”. When someone used a different single lens, and we all remarked how much “brighter” his emitter was on his video (and he demonstgrated superios DISTANCE with it too) the guy would lecture us…

“Its not BRIGHTER. The lens can only alter beamshape. Only DIAMETER allows any lens to pass more light. Focal length does nothing to increase brightness.”

===

we stayed polite? but over time, we kept suggesting he “demonstrate that procedure”, he should post a video… he never did.

he DID want a better illuminator for his commercial (tubed) night vision, though? he ended being VERY HAPPY making one of our “traditional” illuminators, and he LOVED it, and posted videos of him boating in the mediterranean… and he kind of went away (sailing i gues, lol)

(apparently? altering the beamshape, and robbing the light with a long focal length?? made him happy)

===

we dont have meters for IR… perhaps we made our builds for “distance”, not to make a meter happy.

can someone tell me how this relates to visible flashlights? I know i about pee my pants with delight, when i see the “big builder” on here post a picture showing his emitter at insane distances… its awe inspiring. On the night vision site? we were “following” developmenmts on the flashlight sites (mainly HERE) and we tried to apply anythgn we could…

it SEEMED like what worked for visible flashlight technology… worked for IR emitters.

but… we dont build to a meter reading… we can only report distance.

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What :open_mouth: do you mean we can use a tiny lens on the emitter in reflector lights? Or am i totally misunderstanding what you say about that p60 reflector 2 post above here.

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well, you can stick a lens ANYWHERE you WANT, if you dont care what it looks like, or, how sturdy it is…

at the time a couple years ago? i had never been introduced to LED flashlights visible, let alone IR emitters.

i bought 3 IR emitters built into p60 modules from a member on my night vision site… i think the guy i used was in portugal?

i gave up up the “501/502” host body after a short time. I had 12v drivers in the p60 modules i ordered, since the screen and camera and everything else for the night vision ran on 12v anyways… i had wires for power trailing back from the p60 module… running on 12v there was no real “need” for the “body” of the flashlight anymore, since the whole “flashlight” was just a little p60 module and the reflector was the heat sink.

i wrapped the p60 module and reflector in thick aluminum tape until it was a tight press fit into a 1” copper coupler.

i was using 2 small biconvex lenses separated by a fairly big airgap, and in an effort to get a hair MORE airgap i wanted, i used 3 tiny slivers of thick aluminum tape to hold the rear lens just inside the p6o reflector.

(this was for the TINY ir illuminator, small size and half decent performance was the goal)

===

that p60 module was “just” used for that small illuminator build? but… i accidentally grabbed it and used it in my “big” IR illuminator build (all 3 p60 modules were inside 1” copper couplers by this point).

when i realized my “mistake”?? i focused it up anyways… and was amazed it worked, and more amazed it gave me more distance on my screen… so i started readjusting the airgaps on my wider lenses in that build, trying to “tune it”…

it ended up being my best IR illuminator build (best being most distance)

=

but yeah, why couldnt you use a lens ANYWHERE you can tape or glue it in? I figured if i wantd it there permanently, i could carefully JBweld around the edge where the little lens meets the p60 reflector.

i think mainly no one uses a reflector with a focused lens, is because of the “ringies” it makes? in my night vision setup, my camera/gun scope view had the screen filled up with the focused emitter, i couldnt SEE the ringies that were around the emitter… so it didnt bother me.

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heres the tiny “weeStar” illuminator… you can see its a p60 module with power wires on it… those are 2 x cr123 primaries for size reference. the tapered plastic tube holds the “main” small lens… the rear lens is down just inside the end on the p60 reflector

control shot, add-on digital night vision, looking thru a 3 to 9 gun scope…

same view a minute later, wee star illuminator “flood-ed out”, not even tightly focused…

screenshot of my software i wrote to do calculations while i played “what if”…

distance proof… about 125 meters to the pool and the house behind the pool…

32

Interesting that it works with IR emitters :slight_smile:
To bad the beam with white led’s though, would probably look pretty bad. But someday i may try it out just to see how bad.

So do get it right that you used collimator+reflector+final lens on top of the reflector?

I ones tried a 12.5mm aspheric lens on top off a 12.5mm reflector, and the beam was so crazy ugly :Sp it is even hard to try remember it, just weird colour casts & rings & artefacts everywhere.

I described it to my father that it looked like a severely beat up led with bruises & a black eye or something :smiley:

33

no… if you look at the picture??

the whole p60 module was “normal”… basically, the black tapered tube you see onto the end of the p60 reflector? there was one lens at the very top of it, and one at the very bottom of it where it is attached to the p60 reflector. I wanted a little bit more of an airgap between those 2 lenses? so i put the back lens JUST inside the reflector end.

if you think of the p60 module and reflector as sort of the “whole small flashlight”?? the first lens is kind of like the flat lens on every flashlight…. theres just another lens at the end of the little black plastic tube.

34

Aha gotcha :slight_smile:

You asked before about light meters, these are 2 i have seen recommended & used by several users here.

HS1010 the cheapest option.

LX1330B A slightly better one.

I haven bought one myself yet, but those 2 are on the short list :wink:

35

Ufff...

I will have to thoroughly read this...Sedstar wrote whole study and my English is bad.

Sedstar please build 2 or 3 lenses system with led(xp-g2 or XP-e2).

Something came on my mind and that is that I tried T20 with doubler which is in fact triple lens system because doubler(52mm 2xmag telephoto lenses) consists of 2 lenses...

I tried T20 with doubler lenses on XP-G2 led and I think I got jump from 100kcd to 180kcd. It was jump but still not as good as my Dereelight 50mm aspheric which does about 250 kcd with same emitter/driver setup.

Ervin Anastasi also build something similar here

I am interested in this but I am bit sceptic how would multiple lens configuration hold recoil of HP centerfire rifles.

Sedstar should meet Mem and Saabluster and they would make something good.

36

okay, a t20 with a “doubler”… you sound like you are on the “uk-nightvision” site i am on… i definitely remember when the “doubler” night vision Imaging lens got everyone excited as a IR illuminator lens…

i agree with you on the “centerfire recoil” with a multiple lens system… being nervous about it taking the recoil…

THATS why i worry FIRST about building something thats working better… THEN i can worry about getting it made up in all metal and solid.

37

Could you sacrifice(well not real sacrifice) one of your IR setup and swap with de-domed XP-E2/XP-G2 on copper mcpcb?

Yes I know you mentioned it is only 1A driven but final lux value could also be approx calculated by emitter testings made by Djozz.

So if you'll have 80kcd with dedomed XP-E2 at 1A, at 2,8A that should be around 200KCD. When you will have same spare time of course

38

i cant help but “PLAY”, you know?

i have this ONE decent diameter lens, its the big lens from a “projector”, not a film projector from high school?? The overhead transparency projector? (was cheap in a second hand store, fell in love with the lens, lol)

anyways, its a fairly big but not HUGE achromat lens… 2 pieces it unscrews into, a “concave” part and a “convex” part like most/all achromats… cool thing is?? my 1405 from the group buy? the OD of the lens carrier is almost exactly the OD of the outside bezel of the 1405, lol.

while its a LONG focal length? the math (and experience, lol) tells me that the FL of pairing it with a comparatively low FL (like the one on the 1405) will result in an overall compound lens that is only slightly higher FL than the original 1405 lens.

=

the INTERESTING part is? i dedomed one of my “complete” 1405’s… the emitter is now a little yellow… well, until i put the big projector lens against the bezel… then it goes completely WHITE again. (???) and, since dedoming, the slightly yellow-ish “halo” around the emitter goes away too. The resultant emitter is a very perfectly square, crisp white, very PRETTY thing.

one of these days i have to get a cheap “meter” to see what it does to the output. if i just tape the thing to the bezel? its in focus about halfway between what was originally “flod” and “focused”… if i put the 1405 on “complete flood” (closest to the emitter) i need a spacer to get it to focus up.

emitter gets a LITTLE smaller, and goes back to white… and is a very “crisp” image.

===

putting another light i have, on “all flood”… i have a double convex i took out of an “achromat” pairing… the light here is a 3-C “luma something”?? same story… light is recently dedomed, and, holding the light in full flood, holding the lens in front of the bezel about an inch… it goes crisp image, yellow disappears to “nice white” again.

=

i am actually “curious” what this all shows with both lights on a meter… i think i might buy the cheaper one recommended to me a few posts up there. for 14 bux, it will be a fun toy.

39

Here is another meter that looks good, the CT-1330B from Luxmeters: thoughts, findings, comparison
Cheapest i found is at fasttech for $25.36
Check out the end of this thread for some more meter discussions.

I have also seen this effect that you describe, when i placed a pre collimator lens of 12.5mm above a dedomed XP-L 3A, the 3A when dedomed got pretty warm, but still nice. But the added lens made it almost back to 3A again, maybe not quite so much whiter but an ANSI step or 2 more NW again at least, very nice effect :slight_smile:

And because i used it as an pre collimator it also got a much bigger spot.

40

Precoolimator rules! Thank you Vinz ;)

41

When i tried it, i don’t even think i had ever heard of Vinz yet or at least recognised what he had done with lights, i am not sure why i tried it.
It could have been after MEM started dropping hints on what was possible, or probably before that even.

I bought the 12.5mm lens because it fitted the Jexree Mini, and i wanted to try lot of different lenses in that & see if i could do something interesting :), but the aspheric beam looked absolutely horrible in the Jexree Mini, this is the one i described in this thread earlier that looked like a black eye :D.

So i scrapped that idea & dropped it in my Zeusray instead, and it worked so crazy good, bigger,brighter, better colour & felt a bit throwier even. I remember i went out in to the winter night & played with it & had a full on mad scientist belly laugh :bigsmile: because it worked so good. That is why i think i hadn’t read about it before i did it, because i was surprised that it worked so good or even at all.
Of course i had probably picked up the hints somewhere, but i can track from where.

And that is why i really want to crack this puzzle with multiple lens setup’s, i know i has lots of potential, but going to 2-3 or more require much deeper understand to succeed, than dropping a better lens on top of the removed “gel lens” dedomed die. That to me was intuitive, but next step feels so far much much trickier.

42

one year too late.
i’m in possession of a flash light that uses 5 lenses.
here is the setup up.

here is the beam shot

they are not cheap.
rick

43

Pic of the flashlight please!
Who made it, manufacturer / brand???

44

here is the pic.

here is another beam shot
http://postimg.org/image/v736p3zk1/c0cb28fe/
The flashlight is made in south korea. no brand.
they are custom made for their coast guard.
the guy told me he spend $50K for tooling for the lenses.
-r

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IIRC a few years back Saabluster was using a similar setup on the Deft flashlight, a small lens nearly on top of the LED and then a very large Secondary lens in the head.