WAVIEN collars are BACK! Are you interested? [group buy over]

Barkuti · June 10, 2018, 8:30pm

How about an hemispherical recycling reflector with the height of the emitter dome? Radius_sphere = height_dome / sin(60)

Cheers :-)

Enderman · June 10, 2018, 8:55pm

Small optics can get a lot more expensive than large optics, since the smaller you go the harder it is to machine or use tooling.
If a normal custom collar is $2000 from an optics company then something that small might be like 5-10k.

The_Driver1 · June 11, 2018, 5:38am

Saabluster tried that a few years ago. I think he got about half of the improvement that de-doming gets you, not sure though. It was the first upgrade for his DEFT EDC I think.

He actually put the reflective coating onto the dome of a LED.

Tom_Tom · June 10, 2018, 11:00pm

The_Driver:

Glenn7:

But then I was thinking just get an Acebeam LEP W20/W10 and you basically got as good.

Laser

Yes, in theory. In practise there are some problems though. Here in Germany it’s illegal to use a class 3 laser in public. There is also always some danger involved with high powered lasers (what is some part of it breaks and laser radiation directly exits the light?).

A LED with a collar on the other hand is never dangerous even if it falls apart. It also enables the use of known flashlight drivers for LEDs with “cool” U.I.s.

For years I have wanted a small, handheld flashlight with the highest possible luminance. Something that is not possible with any type of HID short-arc bulb. I guess it’s sort of a physics project. If the lights is to have any use it needs to have a “large” hotspot. This os why I want a lens with the shortest possible focal length.

Of course this is not what most people here are interested in.

Forget about this “light recycling” bullsh*t. Remote phosphor illuminated by lasers is the future. Seriously.

You can buy it today from BMW.

And, it seems, Acebeam.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKdQQ5WOXA

I’m not joking, this really is the way to go, but a bit beyond all but the most clued-up modders.

lights_and_pieces · June 10, 2018, 11:00pm

Since there is talk already about lenses I hope you don’t mind my question. Is there a way to figure the focal length of a lens? I have some that are about 21mm and some that are maybe 12.5mm.

I too want an EDC light that uses a Wavien collar but I’ll likely look at trying something like a Convoy host. I don’t have one to take measurements with so I don’t know if any will work or not. I’d be looking at the M1,M2,or C8. Though a C8 probably doesn’t fit in a pocket very well, and ideally I think I’d want an M2. I have carried one in a pocket and while big it wasn’t terrible.

I guess I should say I am interested in these, not sure how many I’d buy but I might be interested in a lens as well.

Also I think the math you all talk about is interesting but I don’t have a clue what most of it means.

Enderman · June 10, 2018, 11:36pm

This thread is about collars, please keep the discussion of laser phosphor to the other laser phosphor threads on this forum of which we have several.
The flashlight from acebeam is not available for purchase yet, it was only announced.
The flashlight costs $200, a lot more than most people are willing to spend.
If you want to build your own, a nubm44 costs about $200 and a single crystal phosphor is about $500, so feel free to do that if you like.
Laser phosphor combinations have extremely low CRI, less than 50, so only people who want pure throw will care to use it (aka me)
The laser needs a laser sink on the other side of the phosphor to not blind someone, so it is a lot more dangerous than any LED flashlight.
Wavien collars can also be used with laser excited phosphor since it emits in the same polar distribution as a flat LED.

lights_and \_pieces:

Since there is talk already about lenses I hope you don’t mind my question. Is there a way to figure the focal length of a lens? I have some that are about 21mm and some that are maybe 12.5mm.

I too want an EDC light that uses a Wavien collar but I’ll likely look at trying something like a Convoy host. I don’t have one to take measurements with so I don’t know if any will work or not. I’d be looking at the M1,M2,or C8. Though a C8 probably doesn’t fit in a pocket very well, and ideally I think I’d want an M2. I have carried one in a pocket and while big it wasn’t terrible.

I guess I should say I am interested in these, not sure how many I’d buy but I might be interested in a lens as well.

Also I think the math you all talk about is interesting but I don’t have a clue what most of it means.

Other than testing it with a light source, not really.
You can get a pretty good estimate by using the sun to make the smallest point possible (on concrete obviously) and just measuring the distance to the lens.

Icarus · June 11, 2018, 12:06am

I would like to buy one wavien collar and maybe also a lens.

lights_and_pieces · June 11, 2018, 12:16am

[/quote]
Other than testing it with a light source, not really. You can get a pretty good estimate by using the sun to make the smallest point possible (on concrete obviously) and just measuring the distance to the lens.
[/quote]

I’ll probably try the sun thing just because. I had a feeling I’d have to get one into a light and play with the focus. I sanded down the edges of one of the bigger ones to fit in an S2 to play with.

The small lens doesn’t have a lip around the outside so I’m guessing that will affect the beam pattern somehow. I haven’t a clue how but I figured it would lessen intensity or something. They will be in either AAA or AA sized lights anyway so they may not be set to all throw anyway.

Agro · June 11, 2018, 8:22am

I think it would be good to reach out to people like Vinh / saabluster / STO / Mitko.
They may be interested….

Enderman · June 11, 2018, 8:35am

Technically you’re not allowed to sell products that use it, but I would guess that rule also applied back when wavien was selling them and they were used in the deft X with no problem.

Schoki · June 11, 2018, 9:07am

How is the lumen loss in the collar? Is it efficient or is there light shining through it?

Enderman · June 11, 2018, 9:09am

It is a cold mirror, usually 99% reflective in the visible range.
near-UV and infrared light goes through it.

Agro · June 11, 2018, 9:11am

There is light shining through it which is a good thing.
Because to excite the phosphor you need blue light hitting it. Everything else will be just extra heat in the emitter.
Collar should reflect over 99% of blue and under 1% of warmer.

And as to lumen loss…Collar recycles light that would otherwise be lost on the flashlight body.
So there is no loss, that’s pure gain. Collar doubles both output and intensity.

Schoki · June 11, 2018, 9:24am

And what about tint? I assume it’s better to use a cold white LED since most of the light hits the phosphor twice and the tint gets warmer?

Tom_Tom · June 11, 2018, 10:41am

There shouldn’t be any visible light shining through it. It is supposed to be a cold mirror, reflecting back all the visible light whilst letting the IR through, to be dissipated elsewhere. Otherwise it would just be a good way to cook the LED.

I have my doubts as to how much “light recycling” goes on with a modern LED, where the phosphor and dome are pretty efficient at extracting all the goodness from the die.

ISTR Dr Jones explained this long ago, but can’t find the link.

I see the collar as a rather obvious (un-patentable) way to bounce the off-axis light around a bit and point it back in the right direction from the hole in the top. Through some additional collimating optics.

Which is a nice idea, but there are also other ways to achieve the same end, such as good reflector design, or TIR optics etc.

Or remote-phosphor arrangements. Which, by the way, don’t have to be flat. And the laser can be piped in through fibre optics, which is how BMW and I think Audi do it.

$50 for just the collar, with precision assembly, additional optics etc. soon adds up to a $200 torch at retail.

The_Driver1 · June 11, 2018, 2:06pm

The collar has the same effect that de-doming has. The tint becomes warmer and more greenish/yellowish. If you want a good tint when using the collar, you need to use a LED with a high CCT and reddish or purplish tint.

The_Driver1 · June 11, 2018, 11:08pm

Tom Tom:

There shouldn’t be any visible light shining through it. It is supposed to be a cold mirror, reflecting back all the visible light whilst letting the IR through, to be dissipated elsewhere. Otherwise it would just be a good way to cook the LED.

I have my doubts as to how much “light recycling” goes on with a modern LED, where the phosphor and dome are pretty efficient at extracting all the goodness from the die.

ISTR Dr Jones explained this long ago, but can’t find the link.

I see the collar as a rather obvious (un-patentable) way to bounce the off-axis light around a bit and point it back in the right direction from the hole in the top. Through some additional collimating optics.

Which is a nice idea, but there are also other ways to achieve the same end, such as good reflector design, or TIR optics etc.

Or remote-phosphor arrangements. Which, by the way, don’t have to be flat. And the laser can be piped in through fibre optics, which is how BMW and I think Audi do it.

$50 for just the collar, with precision assembly, additional optics etc. soon adds up to a $200 torch at retail.

A mirror is never 100% efficient. So there will always be a little bit of light shining through it. That’s what can be seen on the pictures.

The collar does not work by reflection off of the LED. The large gain in luminance can only be explained by added excitation of the phosphor. The tint-shift confirms this conclusion.

contactcr · June 11, 2018, 2:17pm

I think if someone could define a possible build with this a lot more people would be interested.

I suspect the “perfect” host depends more on the lens size right? Then you may need to add a custom spacer to focus it correctly? I’d be in if someone could source a good lens, well fitting host, and see if someone like kiriba-ru could do a run of whatever custom part might be needed to make everything fit and focus correctly in said host.

Theodore41 · June 11, 2018, 2:23pm

+1000

Barkuti · June 11, 2018, 4:15pm

UniqueFire UF1405:

We need a new, redesigned full copper pill with adequate slot clearance for the collar and a 22mm driver trunk (H2-C driver and other powerful fully regulated ones). Someone out there designed a full copper pill with multiple diameter driver slots, it's somewhere around.

A very powerful thrower for relatively small money in parts it could be. Would rip the GT a new one. :-D

Cheers ^:)