Why do you buy lights without High-CRI emitters?

212 posts / 0 new
Last post
maukka
maukka's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 46 min ago
Joined: 12/31/2015 - 04:15
Posts: 2015
Location: Finland

Here’s my normal LED backlit sRGB gamut monitor where the spectrum clearly shows the individual R, G and B subpixels. While the CRI is only about 90 the Rg index in the TM-30-15 is over 100 which means that the gamut (range of colors) is actually larger than a perfect blackbody with the same CCT.

However, I have no idea if this emissive technology can be compared to a reflective real world object.

The ambient light measurement method also skews the color temperature, although the monitor has been calibrated to D65.

SamGranger
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: 05/02/2018 - 12:32
Posts: 15
Location: London

It depends on the application for me.

LEDs incorporated into products that intentionally are supposed to give good colours (IE photography lighting), I think a HCRI is absolutely essential. If its for applications where the HCRI is not going to make a difference in the products end user experience, then maybe there not so important.

Its completely depends on the user, product, cost and end result desired. Thumbs Up

Firelight2
Firelight2's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 32 min ago
Joined: 04/08/2011 - 15:17
Posts: 3730
Location: California

jon_slider wrote:
Barkuti wrote:
There are high CRI emitters with low and/or unbalanced R9 to R12 values, and it seems people rants about tint for these. And for good reasons.

Im also learning about the importance of R9.
Zebralight has been getting a lot of reports for Green Tint in their Cree LED High CRI offerings. Also true for the Olight S1 Mini High CRI w XP-G3, and in my experience also true of lights w N219c. When it comes to R9, Nichia 219b have much higher levels…
Agreed. Need that red in the high CRI to get the beautiful rosy tint we all love.

Unfortunately, the 219b just doesn’t cut it for my uses these days. Output is far too low compared to modern emitters.

maukka
maukka's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 46 min ago
Joined: 12/31/2015 - 04:15
Posts: 2015
Location: Finland
Firelight2 wrote:
Agreed. Need that red in the high CRI to get the beautiful rosy tint we all love.

The tint can be rosy regardless of high Ra or R9.

zak.wilson
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 26 min ago
Joined: 09/29/2014 - 14:27
Posts: 900
maukka wrote:
The tint can be rosy regardless of high Ra or R9.

Recalling the Prime XHP35. Mine is also extremely rosy – much more so to my eyes than a 219B sw45k.

Ceilingbounce – flashlight testing and runtime graphs for Android

Speed4goal
Offline
Last seen: 12 months 1 day ago
Joined: 06/11/2016 - 13:03
Posts: 1204
Location: Bay, St. Louis Mississippi

In your post above you said this

Stay tuned for our next episode, Debunking the Myth that Low CRI NW shows colors as well as High CRI NW…

No ones saying it shows colors just as good as high cri. What everyone’s been saying to them a warmer tint cct whatever you want to call it makes a bigger difference in colors to them compared to adding high cri. And the difference isn’t big enough for them to go strictly to high cri. No ones disagreeing completely that high cri won’t show colors better. Just for the last majority of users. Going from 6500k to 4500-5k makes a more meaningful difference for them. Then going from 70 to 90 cri.

Everyone has their own preference. A few people prefer only high cri that’s fine. Others are happy with low cri 4500k lights.

I’ve been comparing my lights in person 5000k 219c 90 cri to my low cri 5000k lights. Yes stuff looks a little better. The red roofed dog house outside looks better. But to me the difference isn’t drastic enough. To go high cri and nothing else. The light just burns more amps and gets hot faster for less return in output. So yes I’d prefer 4500 5000k and more output for the same or lower Amps. Dropping from 6500 to 4500 is a much more drastic change to my eyes. The high cri just isn’t as important. I just need to light up a big area. Usually set up around 10 lights. Or if I’m at work painting I need more light to see. Just to make sure no runs are forming and can see how much paint is coming out. My overhead lights get covered in overspray and don’t always have time to clean them before the next trailer. It’s one of the same 4 colors. Even being a painter I don’t need the extra cri. One of which is red. As long as I can see how the paint is laying out and the flow that’s all I need I don’t need to see the color of the paint in ultra HD detail. I need more brightness then color detail. When the trailer is done being painted the color is always the same for the customer. Just my uses everyones needs are different.

2/9 Fox Co (2009-2015) Semper Fi 0311/0331 Rifleman/Machine Gunner
Blf has changed a lot since I've been here. Lots of snow flakes and easily offended over nothing. When the forum use to be great and people joked around and could take a joke. It's a forum it's not that serious. Let's make BLF great again!

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 2399
Location: The Land of Enchantment

maukka wrote:
Here’s my normal LED backlit sRGB gamut monitor


no shortage of CRI Ra and R9 in his monitor
maukka wrote:
Firelight2 wrote:
Agreed. Need that red in the high CRI to get the beautiful rosy tint we all love.

The tint can be rosy regardless of high Ra or R9.

I started the false rumor that R9 affects rosy tint, but I have learned from maukka that Tint is separate from CRI
here are two lights with neutral tint (I do not mean CCT), both have negative R9 and low CRI Ra
(images clipped from maukka’s post here: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54834 )

but their low CRI Ra and R9 make red things look brown

fwiw, I just received my first NW low CRI light. I bought it to learn what people are talking about when they say their NW low CRI led looks like a Nichia.
As expected the tint is piss yellow, I see no resemblance to a Nichia.

Speed4goal wrote:
What everyone’s been saying to them a warmer tint cct whatever you want to call it makes a bigger difference in colors to them compared to adding high cri.

I do not share your opinion. Color temperature changes are not the same as CRI changes, to me. A NW Low CRI light does not show colors the way a NW High CRI light does.

Hand Palms, to demontrate the difference in CRI

Both the Worm and the Utorch are NW, look at the coral, which LED makes it most Red?

here is an example of why I do not consider foliage a valid test of CRI


can you see that the Low CRI is very good at enhancing green?
That does not mean that Low CRI, be it NW or not, is good at showing colors.

ToyKeeper
ToyKeeper's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 16 min ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 14:40
Posts: 10090
Location: (469219) 2016 HO3
jon_slider wrote:
Hand Palms

I can tell by the conviction of your words that you have stones. I’m not sure I need to see them though. Big Smile

Speed4goal
Offline
Last seen: 12 months 1 day ago
Joined: 06/11/2016 - 13:03
Posts: 1204
Location: Bay, St. Louis Mississippi

Like I said above I can see a difference. With my two high cri lights and in the pictures. I don’t know the effect the camera and monitor play but yes the reds are more vibrant. Even on my red dog house I see it. But in my day to day uses. It just doesn’t matter matter to me as much. It’s not a deal breaker. And when I take my daughters to the park at night. It’s not lit at all basically I make a circle of 8 to 10 lights. High cri isn’t a priority. I need output, and decent run times at a higher output. Your needs are different then mine and others. When I hear the cat fighting with the racoon outside. I don’t think let me grab my high cri light. I just grab a light I know is a few thousand lumens and run it away. I don’t need to see the raccoon in more vibrant color. Just to see it

2/9 Fox Co (2009-2015) Semper Fi 0311/0331 Rifleman/Machine Gunner
Blf has changed a lot since I've been here. Lots of snow flakes and easily offended over nothing. When the forum use to be great and people joked around and could take a joke. It's a forum it's not that serious. Let's make BLF great again!

ToyKeeper
ToyKeeper's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 16 min ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 14:40
Posts: 10090
Location: (469219) 2016 HO3
jon_slider wrote:
here is an example of why I do not consider foliage a valid test of CRI can you see that the Low CRI is very good at showing green? That does not mean that Low CRI, be it NW or not, is good at showing colors.

In these pictures, the low-CRI light also appears to be better at showing red, due to being brighter. That wooden door is much more visible in the second shot… which may serve as an example of why one might prefer lumens over CRI. Brighter tends to look better.

Of course, the visible difference here could also be due to completely unrelated factors like exposure time, ISO speed, or white balance.

DavidEF
DavidEF's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 11 hours ago
Joined: 06/05/2014 - 06:00
Posts: 7698
Location: Salisbury, North Carolina, USA

…and the difference in the example of the “two neutrals” could still be the (unknown) CCT and/or tint rather than CRI. Just because you say both are “neutral” doesn’t mean they are “the same, other than CRI”.

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

ToyKeeper
ToyKeeper's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 16 min ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 14:40
Posts: 10090
Location: (469219) 2016 HO3

It seems things are going in circles. Everyone is correct, but talking about different things.

Assuming all other things are equal, higher CRI will generally look better. However, that’s a bit like assuming a spherical cow in a vacuum. It is completely correct within the confines of its hypothetical scenario, but it may gloss over a few factors which are relevant for practical applications.

On a lighter note, here’s a picture of Elon Musk’s cow expressing her discontent with her role as a rocket test payload:

Test Cow #17 wrote:


I hate you, Elon.

She floated by my space rock around breakfast time this morning, and still had that look on her face. Maybe she’ll be a bit less angry by the time she reaches Mars.

bansuri
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 36 min ago
Joined: 01/30/2017 - 23:43
Posts: 441
Location: Land of Lincoln
jon_slider wrote:
fwiw, I just received my first NW low CRI light. I bought it to learn what people are talking about when they say their NW low CRI led looks like a Nichia. As expected the tint is piss yellow, I see no resemblance to a Nichia.

I can see how the Utorch would drive you to post vulgarities, it has a,… distinct output.
Perhaps take the picture again without the plastic lens, you may be surprised at how much the plastic distorts and colors the output. Here are my results.
With lens:

Without:

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 2399
Location: The Land of Enchantment

bansuri wrote:
With lens:

Without:

thanks for reminding me of those photos
the NoLens looks a lot better!
the with Lens looks exactly like my yellow/green donut hole
fortunately I knew what I was getting into beforehand, so not distressed

I bought the Low CRI light intending to have it modded to Nichia anyway
I will add AssPheric lens replacement to the goals list, a diffuser film may be in order..

bansuri
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 36 min ago
Joined: 01/30/2017 - 23:43
Posts: 441
Location: Land of Lincoln

Please post in the Utorch thread if you find a decent replacement lens. It works well as a mule but the aspheric gives it an interesting character were it not for the crazy color the stock plastic lens adds. (I don’t really KNOW if it’s the plastic that affects it, just thought it was worth mentioning).

Gotta add I’m feeling pretty dull compared to my fellow flashoholics. Besides working on equipment in the daytime and using flashlights to overcome daylight adjusted eyes when peering in ancient machines I mostly use my flashlights for object avoidance at night. I’m an old dad with young kids, old kids, and grandkids so there is always a high probability of stepping on a toy or something that shouldn’t be on the floor.
I could get by with a flashlight that only showed grayscale.

AnhTran
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
Joined: 05/13/2017 - 23:56
Posts: 178
Location: Australia

In the past, i bought lights without high Cri because I didn’t know/care about CRI.
Now, i buy lights without high CRI to mod them with my Nichia high CRI Big Smile
Also i buy low CRI because i have enough high CRI in my collection.
I have changed over half of my flashlights’ leds to the 219B sw45 R9080.
For me now, tint is even more important than cri, bad tint is more noticeable

teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 1 day ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama

ToyKeeper wrote:
It seems things are going in circles. Everyone is correct, but talking about different things.
Good point TK…… Thumbs Up .. Big Smile
.

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 2399
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Cognition Ahead

Blessed be the peace keepers.

teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 1 day ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama

Nice….. Beer . Wink

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

Boaz
Boaz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 3 hours ago
Joined: 11/07/2010 - 09:31
Posts: 7173
Location: Birthplace of Aviation

,

       καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

                            

       Dc-fix diffuser film  >…  http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42208

virencelights
virencelights's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 7 min ago
Joined: 12/23/2012 - 19:53
Posts: 1153
Location: London, United Kingdom

from Jason Hui over at Prometheus Lights;

“ _When you order a MIL/LEO Alpha you can choose your LED, but I still recommend the “Maker’s Choice” MCE 4500K LED. I have two theories on this. First, these are 82 CRI minimum and I believe the enhanced color rendering will allow your brain to recognize features and make decisions more quickly. It’s just a theory, but when life demands split second decision making, I want to reduce the workload on my brain as much as I can.”
_

Virence ArmyTek Viking Pro Quadtrix 9080 E21A 5700, Virence Skilhunt H04 Quadtrix 9080 E21A 5000k, Virence Jetbeam AAA 9080 E21A 5000k,
Virence Jetbeam AAA Nichia HCRI Red Led.

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 2399
Location: The Land of Enchantment

HCRI9080 wrote:
from Jason Hui over at Prometheus Lights;

when life demands split second decision making, I want to reduce the workload on my brain as much as I can.

Interesting spin, which of the following lights reduces the workload, processing time, the most, for you?

I can understand better now, why people say NW low CRI shows colors well, even CW Low CRI shows relative colors. In the next pic I removed the worm from bottom right above, and added a Thorfire TK05 CW XP-G3 Low CRI

Use whatever light you like, choices are good. Our brain is really good at adjusting its white balance and relative color perception, even when a light has Low R9. I would go so far as to say our brain is much more forgiving than the camera, which in itself is quite good at adapting to different relative colors.

thanks to all for sharing your thoughts

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 2399
Location: The Land of Enchantment

From the ridiculous to the sublime

Even with a Green Filter, I can tell the fruit colors apart in real life:

I hear deer dont spook when illuminated with a Green Beam Smile

teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 1 day ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama

Hmmmm…. looks like you ate a tomato & replaced it with an orange. Wink

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 2399
Location: The Land of Enchantment

teacher wrote:
Hmmmm…. looks like you ate a tomato & replaced it with an orange. Wink

You are very perceptive!

fwiw, Deer cant see Red, and I can still tell the fruits apart

Blue works for me to tell colors apart too, but deer can see it really well, so you Will be noticed

Bottom line is everybody is right, it makes absolutely no difference what CRI or color a light is, you can still tell colors apart from each other.

There would be no need for High CRI if relative color was all I cared about. I think the Blue looks “cool”

chadvone
chadvone's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 08/28/2015 - 23:48
Posts: 1829
Location: Iowa
teacher wrote:
Hmmmm…. looks like you ate a tomato & replaced it with an orange. Wink

lol

ToyKeeper
ToyKeeper's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 16 min ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 14:40
Posts: 10090
Location: (469219) 2016 HO3
jon_slider wrote:
Even with a Green Filter, I can tell the fruit colors apart in real life:

That says more about the filter than about the light source. The filter is letting non-green shades through. Here’s a true green filter applied in a checkerboard pattern:

The physical filter certainly decreases non-green shades quite a bit, but it’s still letting through enough to make out some other shades.

For comparison, here’s the same perfect* filter applied to an earlier pic.

* “Perfect” meaning the red and blue channels were completely zeroed out before saving, but jpeg compression has added small non-zero values in some places.

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 2399
Location: The Land of Enchantment

ToyKeeper wrote:
The physical filter certainly decreases non-green shades quite a bit, but it’s still letting through enough to make out some other shades.

Yes.
Same happens with Low CRI NW lights with Yellow Tint, and Low CRI CW lights with Green or Blue Tint. They still allow the operator to tell fruits apart, in real life, even if they look Yellow or Green when white wall hunting.

So, why would anybody bother to buy a light with High CRI?
Why all the hype, what can High CRI do that Low CRI can’t, and why should I even care about CRI?

When HDS can sell Low CRI lights, with yellow or green tint, or even blue, why bother stocking the Nichia model? I hear the Nichia is not even as bright.

All this Tint and CRI stuff sounds like a first world problem. Any Tint light will let me see in the dark. Why be such a Tint and CRI Snob, and why do I keep buying more lights?:-)

Zulumoose
Zulumoose's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/13/2017 - 09:25
Posts: 859
Location: South Africa
Quote:
All this Tint and CRI stuff sounds like a first world problem. Any Tint light will let me see in the dark. Why be such a Tint and CRI Snob, and why do I keep buying more lights?:-)

I learnt all I needed to know (though I didn’t realise it at the time) one night with two Convoy S2+ models and a BLF A6.

1) Shine cool white 1A Convoy around the garden, look at the grass and all the coloured flowers, browns etc. – LOOKS GOOD!

2) Shine warm white 4C Convoy around the garden, look at the grass and all the coloured flowers, browns etc. – LOOKS GOOD!

3) Compare the two side by side, it becomes obvious that something in-between would be better, colours are, compared to each other, either washed out or browned out to some extent.

4) Hold the two together, double the lumens and a neutral white combination beam – LOOKS GREAT!

5) Compare the two Convoys together to the neutral white 3D A6 – VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL, in both lumens and colour!

Since then neutral white seems obviously best for me, in anything but a thrower, and the A6 with probably 70CRI shows a variety of colours better to my eye than any high CRI light I have tried since. Any attempts to beat it on colour have failed, my Q8 beats it on lumens and equals it on colours, but I think it has the same spec emitters. My neutral white H03 seems to be about the same as well, with a lovely even floody beam, but also I think only 70CRI.

I have 2 A01s with 90CRI Nichia emitters, but one is too cool and one is too warm, exactly the same sort of results as with the Convoys, their temp taints the colour, so there does not appear to be any advantage to the high CRI for me unless combined with neutral temp.

I have an S41S with neutral white Nichia 90CRI emitters on the way. This may be my last attempt to place a value on CRI above 70. I honestly don’t expect to notice a difference, and if so, the increased heat output, weight, and aggressive knurling will likely have me back to the A6 as my favourite.

Beam me up!

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 2399
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Sounds happy, you like your 5000k light and its CCT matters more to you than its CRI.
S41S has a 5000k 219c, so you might like it, seems like a fair test. Go for the CCT you want first, then add CRI frosting.

Maybe we can stop buying new lights soon Smile

ps, watch out for vague terms like neutral and warm. Look at this listing, it has a 5000k light it calls warm, but they were just calling 5000k neutral in the S41..
https://www.banggood.com/Astrolux-S42S-Stainless-Steel-4xNichia-219CXP-G...LED-Flashlight-p-1151524.html?rmmds=detail-left-hotproducts__3&cur_warehouse=CN

CCT is more specific. Its good to know what you want. I like neutral white, but I mean 4000k. Not a fan of 5000k myself. In fact I just listed my 5500k High CRI light for sale. I was not impressed with the CRI either.
here is the ad
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60354

Pages